[ScoobyDoo1992]

I don't know much about Maltipoos, but I have a very similar lifestyle to what you described, and added a toy poodle to my life late last year. She has been nothing more than an angel and any dog will add so much love and happiness to your family. Even with a toy poodle, size is unpredictable...her parents were both in size, about 7-8 pounds and she is still sitting at 3.5 pounds lol. I guess it is what it is! Good news is she has flown on a plane 4 times in less than 6 months and has been so easy to manage. I have no problem leaving her alone, even though she is very attached, although I do have resources for a sitter if she is home all day. Even though she is so small, she was spayed at 6 months, and recovered more easily than all my friends dogs. She hasn't had any health issues whatsoever, although I hear teeth can be an issue with the small babies and joints-- you can do your best to go with a reliable breeder to prevent that, but ultimately health issues can arise in even what seems to be a healthy puppy. Again, I know nothing about maltipoos, but I can say based on my experience a toy poodle would be a great fit for your needs.

Thank you, this is so helpful! Do you mind if I ask you a few more questions? Are the plane travels easy? Does she get nervous when flying / is it easy to put her in the bag? It was hard with my previous dog, he was extremely nervous. Is there anything you don't like about your little girl? Do you feel she is easy to train and does she love to cuddle?
Wow 3.5 pounds is tiny but I guess she is still so young!!

 

[ScoobyDoo1992]

Since Maltipoo is on your "definite maybe" list, I'm wondering why you haven't also mentioned looking at pure Maltese. I've met some that were quite lovely little dogs.

So I think Maltese are a little too relaxed for me... Poodles are meant to be a lot more energetic, so the mix at least on paper seems ideal - a calm, cuddly maltese + an intelligent and loving and energetic poodle. I also love the wavy poodle coat....

 

[Mr.Ziggy]

So I think Maltese are a little too relaxed for me... Poodles are meant to be a lot more energetic, so the mix at least on paper seems ideal - a calm, cuddly maltese + an intelligent and loving and energetic poodle. I also love the wavy poodle coat....

With a mix you could get all the the genes you want. Or all of the genes you don't want. Anyone who tells you that you will get all the good and none of the bad is lying to get your money.
Good breeders are doing it to better the breed. Mixes are not a breed and their breeders are just in it for the money and will tell you whatever you want to hear. It may turn out well, it may not.

 

[ScoobyDoo1992]

I have had 4 mixed breed dogs in my life. Two were cocker spaniel/poodle mixes, and both were fantastic dogs. One, though, had major health issues, but she lived a very long life. The last 2 poodles mixes in my life had major personality/behavioral and health issues. One was a rescue and the other came from a breeder. My maltese/poodle mix is still living, and I love him dearly, but I would never go the route of getting a poodle mix again, unless from a rescue. It would be very challenging to find an ethical "maltipoo" breeder. Why not research the maltese and poodle breed and determine which breed would be best for you? You might also look into the havanese breed.

Thank you. This is helpful. Why do you feel like you wouldn't go down the maltese/poodle mix again? Is it because of health issues? I guess what I am trying to wrap my head around is, if both parents, say, are extensively health tested, and so were their parents, then why would the mixed offspring have health issues? Is the issue here that the "maltipoo" breeders do not do these health tests, or that even if the parents are health tested there can still be health problems? The mixed breed breeders even go as far as to say the mixed offspring will have LESS issues vs a purebred dog so I am quite confused.....

 

[ScoobyDoo1992]

Of course I am biased toward the poodle. But you have a lot of options with your requirements. Toy poodle, Maltese, yorkshire terrier. Also some rarer breeds like Bolognese. I met one once when living in the UK. I went to the KC annual event I think it was called 'meet the breed' or something. A huge event with lots of breeds so you can meet them and talk to the breeders to help you pick which breed fits you. It helped me narrow down to poodle. Its a shame that it no longer happens due to Covid. I think going to that might help you.

Regarding SA. That is primarily a training issue. Now all of the small companion breeds are going to be more prone to this because they are bred to be around people. But with proactive effort from day one you should be able to leave for 3 or 4 hours. I have never been told that a poodle cant do that. If a breeder has such SA in their line then I would avoid them regardless, that seems odd to me.

On a general point. When getting a mix, only do so if you love all of the aspects of all breeds in that mix. If you think that a breed does not fit your circumstances then dont get a dog that is 50% that breed. If toy poodles really are so much more likely to have SA then a poodle mix is also going to have that risk.

A mix is a random combination of both breeds. It doesnt magically get just the good parts from both sides. I speak from experience here. Not a poodle mix but a labrador x border collie from my childhood. We wanted a lab but couldnt afford a purebred. Got a lab mix hoping it would be more lab than collie, we were very mistaken and the dog ended up rehomed. I have never had the guts to investigate what happened to him after he left us but I highly suspect that he was euthanised young.

Thanks for your reply!
I love either a curly coat (Poodle), or a thin one (min pins, dachshunds, etc), but not the long fluffy ones like Maltese, Bolognese, Even a Yorkie. Somehow those breeds don't appeal to me at all. So maybe that indeed is an indicator to go for toy poodle vs maltese/poodle mix if I don't particularly love the maltese component of it....
Sorry about your childhood experience. So sounds like the main issue with the mixes is that you don't know what you're getting? If the parents are healthy etc, you may still get a great dog but you just don't know which way it will sway in terms of looks, personality etc?

 

[Mr.Ziggy]

Thank you. This is helpful. Why do you feel like you wouldn't go down the maltese/poodle mix again? Is it because of health issues? I guess what I am trying to wrap my head around is, if both parents, say, are extensively health tested, and so were their parents, then why would the mixed offspring have health issues? Is the issue here that the "maltipoo" breeders do not do these health tests, or that even if the parents are health tested there can still be health problems? The mixed breed breeders even go as far as to say the mixed offspring will have LESS issues vs a purebred dog so I am quite confused.....

If you think you have found a breeder of a mix that does ALL of the appropriate health tests, feel free to post them here! I know a lot of folks have been searching for years for a mix breeder that does all the right health tests and have not been able to find one. This is because folks who breed mixes are in it for the money.

 

[twyla]

These designer mixes
Neither parent will be the best example of it's breed because a good breeder will not allow that to happen.
I am on the bad side of mixed, I inherited a chihuahua pomeranian mix, sold as a "breed", she is 15 1/2 years old, such a beautiful dog but extremely neurotic, with a lot of physcotropic drugs she is a good dog but without she is food aggressive, toy aggressive, people possessive and has bitten people and other dogs.
I would not ever pay money to a breeder for a mixed breed, go to a shelter or rescue group.
Am I anti mix breed? Not to the dogs themselves, but the "breeders" of doodles, hybrids, designer dogs I have no time for.
I own a dog that without meds is a lit stick of dynamite, that I cannot take most places.
I also frown on the term teacup as there is no recognized poodle size, toy poodles are small enough as it is.
Get a toy poodle from a good breeder one that health tests, my oversized show fail is not quite 6 1/2 pounds and is 11" tall, very petite boy, very healthy, beautiful and a good temperament.

 

[Raindrops]

Doodle breeders are like car salesmen. They are notorious in the dog world. If you go to an obedience or rally or agility trial you won't see doodles. Maybe one or two rescues. But nobody looking for a stable well bred dog would entertain the thought of a doodle. There are a few breeders of labradoodles in the US that do all health testing and title their dogs. But very very few. So far not a single maltipoo breeder has been found to complete these requirements.

People buy doodles because they are a fad, and that's it. The doodle market preys on uneducated buyers who don't research and don't have much dog experience. Doodles tend to be riddled with health issues because their parents are from puppy mills and are not health tested. A purebred from a responsible breeder would have all health testing completed on parents. So yes doodles have very poor health. Mixes often are not spared health issues as many breeds share diseases. Most small dogs are at risk from the same health issues. PRA and luxating patella run in most small breeds. So having a mix won't make it healthier. In fact, it will be less healthy as it isn't from health tested parents who were shown to be clear of disease.

 

[mandy1010]

T

Thank you, that's really helpful. Did you end up going for the toy poodle?
Something that I am seeing in some online forums/reviews is that the maltipoo tends to be more "cuddly" because of the maltese genes (a truer lap dog), but then people tell me toy poodles love to cuddle too...for the most part.
Re being smaller, is your recommendation to not go for an extremely small one then? I know people breed teacup poodles, they seem so tiny

yeah i went with a toy poodle, i have spoken too many many many breeders and i don't advise for a smaller toy poodle cause you risk them easily getting hurt they're so small and tiny and fragile you have to be extra cautious. I do recommend the normal conformation which good breeders stand by promoting healthy breeds with the correct ratio. I did look at tiny toy poodles because they're adorable but sometimes the risk outweighs the cost, so decided to look for a toy poodle with the correct height and weight. If you are looking to walk your dog out a tiny toy poodle you should be extra cautious, for me i am looking for a pet that is small enough to travel and still be able to run around a bit. Those were my priorities. I didn't get a maltipoo cause my sisters best friend had recently bought one from a breeder than 9 weeks later he passed away due to pneumonia and complications and it steered me away from mixed breeds cause i wasn't sure of the outcome and i like knowing lineages, blood lines and health of the sire and dam and so forth, but that is me i like knowing a lot cause i'll be investing 12-15 years in my puppy. I recommend talking to various breeders and getting there suggestions it only cements your vision of what you want in the long run. Hopefully this helps you out in your seach!

 

[Johanna]

Yes, seems like they do mat easily... is that why you don't like these crosses?

I do not like crosses because they are almost always scams. People who are reputable breeders work hard to breed to the standard and to breed out hereditary health issues. Reputable breeders do not cross-breed, they concentrate on improving their chosen breed. I doubt any of the people breeding poodle crosses have much knowledge of the dogs behind their breeding stock. Some of them do not even know the grandparents of their dogs, let alone the health history.

 

[Johanna]

Doodle breeders are like car salesmen. They are notorious in the dog world. If you go to an obedience or rally or agility trial you won't see doodles. Maybe one or two rescues. But nobody looking for a stable well bred dog would entertain the thought of a doodle. There are a few breeders of labradoodles in the US that do all health testing and title their dogs. But very very few. So far not a single maltipoo breeder has been found to complete these requirements.

People buy doodles because they are a fad, and that's it. The doodle market preys on uneducated buyers who don't research and don't have much dog experience. Doodles tend to be riddled with health issues because their parents are from puppy mills and are not health tested. A purebred from a responsible breeder would have all health testing completed on parents. So yes doodles have very poor health. Mixes often are not spared health issues as many breeds share diseases. Most small dogs are at risk from the same health issues. PRA and luxating patella run in most small breeds. So having a mix won't make it healthier. In fact, it will be less healthy as it isn't from health tested parents who were shown to be clear of disease.

Raindrops, you are so right! Those are all very serious issues.

 

[Johanna]

yeah i went with a toy poodle, i have spoken too many many many breeders and i don't advise for a smaller toy poodle cause you risk them easily getting hurt they're so small and tiny and fragile you have to be extra cautious. I do recommend the normal conformation which good breeders stand by promoting healthy breeds with the correct ratio. I did look at tiny toy poodles because they're adorable but sometimes the risk outweighs the cost, so decided to look for a toy poodle with the correct height and weight. If you are looking to walk your dog out a tiny toy poodle you should be extra cautious, for me i am looking for a pet that is small enough to travel and still be able to run around a bit. Those were my priorities. I didn't get a maltipoo cause my sisters best friend had recently bought one from a breeder than 9 weeks later he passed away due to pneumonia and complications and it steered me away from mixed breeds cause i wasn't sure of the outcome and i like knowing lineages, blood lines and health of the sire and dam and so forth, but that is me i like knowing a lot cause i'll be investing 12-15 years in my puppy. I recommend talking to various breeders and getting there suggestions it only cements your vision of what you want in the long run. Hopefully this helps you out in your seach!

Good for you, Mandy. I hope your careful research pays off in years of companionship with your new puppy. Please keep us up to date.

 

[Dechi]

The way the doodle breeders position these dogs are hypo allergenic dogs, poodle's intelligence + cuddliness of the maltese/cavapoo (best of both worlds), less likely to have health isses given the gene crossing, etc etc. Is that all a load of BS?

Yes, I think it is. When you cross two breeds, the offsprings aren’t necessarily going to have the genetics you want from either parent. Some « doodles » shed hair, some don’t, some have curly hair, some have flat hair. Some have the temperament of one of the parent and some have a complete different temperament. I think the best testament to that is the creator of the labradoodle admitting creating this mix was a huge mistake and even called it a « Frankenstein monster ». Talk to groomers and they will tell you many doodles are a nightmare to groom because they are so hyper.

Labradoodle creator says he regrets 'Frankenstein's monster' - CNN

The creator of the Labradoodle cross-breed has said he inadvertently unleashed a "Frankenstein('s) monster".

www.cnn.com

Creating a breed is not taking a male and female from two different breeds and giving it a new name. It takes generations to do and it has to be done by knowledgeable people. Mrs Smith crossing her female with Mrs Rose’s male is not cutting it...

 

[ScoobyDoo1992]

With a mix you could get all the the genes you want. Or all of the genes you don't want. Anyone who tells you that you will get all the good and none of the bad is lying to get your money.
Good breeders are doing it to better the breed. Mixes are not a breed and their breeders are just in it for the money and will tell you whatever you want to hear. It may turn out well, it may not.

Thank you. That makes sense. I am so glad I did my research before going for one of the crosses although I almost did. I guess there's a chance it would be fine, but if it isn't, I don't want a high vet bill nightmare and more importantly the grief of a really sick dog.

 

[ScoobyDoo1992]

Yes, I think it is. When you cross two breeds, the offsprings aren’t necessarily going to have the genetics you want from either parent. Some « doodles » shed hair, some don’t, some have curly hair, some have flat hair. Some have the temperament of one of the parent and some have a complete different temperament. I think the best testament to that is the creator of the labradoodle admitting creating this mix was a huge mistake and even called it a « Frankenstein monster ». Talk to groomers and they will tell you many doodles are a nightmare to groom because they are so hyper.

Labradoodle creator says he regrets 'Frankenstein's monster' - CNN

The creator of the Labradoodle cross-breed has said he inadvertently unleashed a "Frankenstein('s) monster".

www.cnn.com

Creating a breed is not taking a male and female from two different breeds and giving it a new name. It takes generations to do and it has to be done by knowledgeable people. Mrs Smith crossing her female with Mrs Rose’s male is not cutting it...

Thank you for your perspective. Actually just read about this guy today! So interesting. I hadn't appreciated how hard breeding is, not just putting A and B together. So glad I posted here, a few months ago I was so torn among all the different doodles and now I am totally off them....

 

[thiisismegan]

Thank you, this is so helpful! Do you mind if I ask you a few more questions? Are the plane travels easy? Does she get nervous when flying / is it easy to put her in the bag? It was hard with my previous dog, he was extremely nervous. Is there anything you don't like about your little girl? Do you feel she is easy to train and does she love to cuddle?
Wow 3.5 pounds is tiny but I guess she is still so young!!

I am not a poodle expert by any means, but I think "cuddliness" can vary based on the individual dogs personality. Our family dog is a 14 year old toy poodle- she will not sit or relax anywhere other than touching a human body (unless she is left alone which she happily does for 6+ hours) whereas my toy poodle puppy voluntarily lounges anywhere but my lap lol. I don't mind at all- in fact prefer she doesn't need to be physically attached to me at all times so I can work-- it wasn't something that I considered when choosing a pup though. As far as plane travel, she doesn't get nervous at all, has never had an accident (although I always take her potty on the plane but she never goes) never makes a peep in the bag, and is very very happy in her bag-- she surprises me every time! I didn't do anything special...other than I think that her first flight was at 10 weeks and she has flown multiple times since. She has been super easy to train, I have no clue how I got so lucky. She actually tends to be 'easier' and more relaxed when we are out and about than at home. Regardless of which direction you go, I am sure you will be happy. It's hard not to love them for exactly who they are once you bring home your pup.

 

[Rose n Poos]

if both parents are extensively health testes and KC registered (i.e. the maltese, and the toy poodle), wouldn't that "guarantee" that the maltipoo pups are therefore healthy and be effectively the same health wise as getting a pure bred? Or at least reduce the likelihood of genetic diseases? Say if all the generations of the maltese, and all generations of the toy poodle are healthy, why would there be unhealthy pups?

The testing is not going to cover every possible health issue for any breed.

Every established breed, and therefore also crosses between two breeds, will have known health issues. Some of these issues are significant enough to become life-altering or worse. Some issues are evaluated thru physical exams, x-rays and such (phenotype testing) and some are DNA testing for affected or carrier genes for specific conditions (genotype testing).

If the maltese parent tests clear/good/normal for the conditions the maltese may develop and was tested for, any pups are very unlikely to inherit those conditions from the maltese.

If the poodle parent tests clear/good/normal for the conditions that poodles may develop and was tested for, then their pups are very unlikely to inherit those conditions from the poodle.

This doesn't mean that the pups can't inherit something that wasn't tested for. This doesn't mean that maltese and poodles have the same known health issues that are tested.

Not every health condition can be tested for, not at this time anyhow. Someday, maybe. Until or unless that level of testing is available, there will be a chance that something might be inherited. Testing is like having insurance for the tested conditions.

"Healthy" actually needs to be defined to answer these questions better. As far as generations of dogs having been "healthy", if the definition of "healthy" is that no dog in the lineage has ever developed one of the conditions that can now be tested, it would be unusual for those pups to develop any of those conditions, but it could happen. This is what breeders depended on before the types of testing now available came to be.

This is the real life example I use. My house used to have a wood shingle roof. This made my house susceptible to fire from lightning or fireworks hitting the roof. I replaced the roof with a composition shingle material making a fire from those sources very unlikely. My house can still catch fire but it's not likely to be from a lightning strike or burning fireworks on the roof.


Using OFA criteria as an example there is a "cleared by parentage" possibility.

"What does “clear by parentage” mean?

OFA records results of approximately 120 DNA tests, all of which are currently “direct mutation” tests, meaning that the test results are 100 percent accurate and not subject to interpretation. For direct mutation tests, OFA will clear by parentage for one generation.

That means that if both parents have been DNA tested clear for a disease, OFA will declare offspring clear by virtue of the fact that the parents tested clear. However, there are a few requirements to clear by parentage.

1.) As mentioned, both sire and dam must have tested clear, and those test results must be on record with OFA.

2.) The sire, dam and the offspring to be cleared must all have been DNA identity profiled, and DNA profiles must be on record at OFA.

Once those requirements are met, the owner of the offspring to be cleared will fill out the application for DNA Based Genetic Disease (available on the OFA website), writing “clear by parentage” in the blank line at the top of the form, and submit the form with the $15 OFA processing fee. That’s it—your dog is now cleared by parentage for that disease.

The resulting certification will have a suffix of CBP, indicating that the dog itself was not tested and that the clearance is based on the sire and dam’s test results. OFA will only clear by parentage for one generation, due to the possibility of new mutations or as yet undiscovered gene mutations.

Bear in mind that DNA-based screening is an evolving science, and OFA policy is subject to change as technology and science advance.

 

[ScoobyDoo1992]

The testing is not going to cover every possible health issue for any breed.

Every established breed, and therefore also crosses between two breeds, will have known health issues. Some of these issues are significant enough to become life-altering or worse. Some issues are evaluated thru physical exams, x-rays and such (phenotype testing) and some are DNA testing for affected or carrier genes for specific conditions (genotype testing).

If the maltese parent tests clear/good/normal for the conditions the maltese may develop and was tested for, any pups are very unlikely to inherit those conditions from the maltese.

If the poodle parent tests clear/good/normal for the conditions that poodles may develop and was tested for, then their pups are very unlikely to inherit those conditions from the poodle.

This doesn't mean that the pups can't inherit something that wasn't tested for. This doesn't mean that maltese and poodles have the same known health issues that are tested.

Not every health condition can be tested for, not at this time anyhow. Someday, maybe. Until or unless that level of testing is available, there will be a chance that something might be inherited. Testing is like having insurance for the tested conditions.

"Healthy" actually needs to be defined to answer these questions better. As far as generations of dogs having been "healthy", if the definition of "healthy" is that no dog in the lineage has ever developed one of the conditions that can now be tested, it would be unusual for those pups to develop any of those conditions, but it could happen. This is what breeders depended on before the types of testing now available came to be.

This is the real life example I use. My house used to have a wood shingle roof. This made my house susceptible to fire from lightning or fireworks hitting the roof. I replaced the roof with a composition shingle material making a fire from those sources very unlikely. My house can still catch fire but it's not likely to be from a lightning strike or burning fireworks on the roof.


Using OFA criteria as an example there is a "cleared by parentage" possibility.

"What does “clear by parentage” mean?

OFA records results of approximately 120 DNA tests, all of which are currently “direct mutation” tests, meaning that the test results are 100 percent accurate and not subject to interpretation. For direct mutation tests, OFA will clear by parentage for one generation.

That means that if both parents have been DNA tested clear for a disease, OFA will declare offspring clear by virtue of the fact that the parents tested clear. However, there are a few requirements to clear by parentage.

1.) As mentioned, both sire and dam must have tested clear, and those test results must be on record with OFA.

2.) The sire, dam and the offspring to be cleared must all have been DNA identity profiled, and DNA profiles must be on record at OFA.

Once those requirements are met, the owner of the offspring to be cleared will fill out the application for DNA Based Genetic Disease (available on the OFA website), writing “clear by parentage” in the blank line at the top of the form, and submit the form with the $15 OFA processing fee. That’s it—your dog is now cleared by parentage for that disease.

The resulting certification will have a suffix of CBP, indicating that the dog itself was not tested and that the clearance is based on the sire and dam’s test results. OFA will only clear by parentage for one generation, due to the possibility of new mutations or as yet undiscovered gene mutations.

Bear in mind that DNA-based screening is an evolving science, and OFA policy is subject to change as technology and science advance.

Thank you, this makes a ton of sense. So it's my understanding that the doodle breeders don't even do the appropriate tests for the known diseases, and adding the uncertain factor of unknown ones, plus nature at play, the outcome may be quite bad. I am so glad I posted here as I am skipping all doodle breeders like a rock now!

 

[ScoobyDoo1992]

I am not a poodle expert by any means, but I think "cuddliness" can vary based on the individual dogs personality. Our family dog is a 14 year old toy poodle- she will not sit or relax anywhere other than touching a human body (unless she is left alone which she happily does for 6+ hours) whereas my toy poodle puppy voluntarily lounges anywhere but my lap lol. I don't mind at all- in fact prefer she doesn't need to be physically attached to me at all times so I can work-- it wasn't something that I considered when choosing a pup though. As far as plane travel, she doesn't get nervous at all, has never had an accident (although I always take her potty on the plane but she never goes) never makes a peep in the bag, and is very very happy in her bag-- she surprises me every time! I didn't do anything special...other than I think that her first flight was at 10 weeks and she has flown multiple times since. She has been super easy to train, I have no clue how I got so lucky. She actually tends to be 'easier' and more relaxed when we are out and about than at home. Regardless of which direction you go, I am sure you will be happy. It's hard not to love them for exactly who they are once you bring home your pup.

Oh she sounds lovely What colour did you get?

 

[Ava.]

toy poodles and Maltese don't even have the same body structure. With toy poodles being petite, skinny, and overall small. Maltese are more heavy boned. The mixing of two, completely opposite breeds adds the risk of oddities with structure!

Personally I think it might be harder to find more colorful toys, I personally haven't found any UKC toy breeders.