[CharismaticMillie]

Interesting about the line. My very obvious dark cream didn't have a line when she was a puppy. Because her face was creamy white, we assumed she would change to that color, but she didn't:

Her coat change is starting. She does have a faint line down her back now that catches the light that is adult type hair. It is coming in darker than her sides, but she is almost not cream anymore, so go figure. It is an orangey-champagne color (I suppose some variation of cream).

Maybe an ice white doesn't have any black behind them, but I would guess that most whites do have blacks because it is very common to breed and black to a white. You rarely see ice white now. Was your white boy from only whites? He is sparkley white in his pictures.

Outwest, your apricot/cream girl has no resemblance to a white...so this really does not apply to your girl..

When I say that the difference between white/cream is determined by a line on the back, I mean that if you have two poodles standing next to each other who both appear "white" to the average person, the cream one may have a hint of a dark line along there back while the white will not. This is what someone very knowledgeable and involved in poodles said to me when I commended on how much whiter her dog was than mine. She explained that hers was a cream dog, even though she appeared whiter than my white dog. She said that hers had a very faint line on the back and that Tiger would ultimately be whiter than hers.

When I say that some traditionalists will say that if there is a black parent the dog is not truly "white", then yes, under that description Tiger would be not considered white, as he has a black sire.

However, I don't believe that most follow that belief anymore. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.) Tiger is considered "white" and not cream because of the color that all of his relatives are: WHITE with inky black pigment and dark, dark skin. I saw them! Couldn't believe it.

Nope, Tiger does not have a dark line on his back.

Remember, outwest, I am not talking appearance, as many creams ultimately will look white. Ice White is not a real color. To some, lineage will determine color more than appearance. So, to SOME, having a black parent will make the dog a cream regardless of the appearance of that dog.

Others argue that there are no whites in the US. They are all creams. Really, it seems awfully subjective. I like the line on the back rule, though, it is pretty objective when comparing a cream to a white in person.

 

[LEUllman]

Maybe an ice white doesn't have any black behind them, but I would guess that most whites do have blacks because it is very common to breed and black to a white. You rarely see ice white now. Was your white boy from only whites? He is sparkley white in his pictures.

Ah ha. An "ice white." I knew I had seen a term for it.

I don't know about ice, but Beau's parents were both creams/whites:

Sire: AM/CA: CH. Divine Deagra Marko Polo, "Marko"

Dam: Kallista's Jewel at Splendid, "Julie"

Beau looks just like his mom!

 

[outwest]

Thanks CM. I get it. A lot of creams are white dogs as adults, like Beau. Mine was probably never really a true cream to begin with, although apricots are darker as pups, for sure. That makes sense. Spoo spirit put a picture up of her puppy and her sister where you could definitely see the difference between white and cream. It can be such a fine line sometimes.

Leullman, no wonder your boy is so cute! You did a great job finding him. His mom has a really sweet face. I can see a touch of cream in his Dad, too. I still say Beau is white now.

 

[patalina]

My poodle pup is darkening, too, more on the back than the sides. It must be the poodle in yours doing that? He is a very pretty color.

thank you for the kind words, I see a lot of peach in his coloring but only time will tell what color my little poodle mix will turn out. I believe his dad was a red toy poodle and mom was an orange pom :act-up:

 

[Anntig]

When I say that some traditionalists will say that if there is a black parent the dog is not truly "white", then yes, under that description Tiger would be not considered white, as he has a black sire.

However, I don't believe that most follow that belief anymore. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.) Tiger is considered "white" and not cream because of the color that all of his relatives are: WHITE with inky black pigment and dark, dark skin. I saw them! Couldn't believe it.

Nope, Tiger does not have a dark line on his back.

Remember, outwest, I am not talking appearance, as many creams ultimately will look white. Ice White is not a real color. To some, lineage will determine color more than appearance. So, to SOME, having a black parent will make the dog a cream regardless of the appearance of that dog.

Others argue that there are no whites in the US. They are all creams. Really, it seems awfully subjective. I like the line on the back rule, though, it is pretty objective when comparing a cream to a white in person.

Interesting, Noras breeder who breeds primarily 'whites' told us that they had to use black every few generations to keep the black pigment which is part of the nzkc breed standard for whites. we were told white pups have peach coloured ears only, if there's colour anywhere else then the pup is a cream which i gues is pretty close to your stripe rule CM.

 

[CharismaticMillie]

Interesting, Noras breeder who breeds primarily 'whites' told us that they had to use black every few generations to keep the black pigment which is part of the nzkc breed standard for whites. we were told white pups have peach coloured ears only, if there's colour anywhere else then the pup is a cream which i gues is pretty close to your stripe rule CM.

I have heard that too, about keeping the black pigment. I think that that is why SOME people believe that there are no true whites in the US - because so much interbreeding of colors occurs. Like I said, I'm not sure how many people, if any, actually hold on to that rule about black dogs in the pediree.

 

[spoospirit]

Interesting, Noras breeder who breeds primarily 'whites' told us that they had to use black every few generations to keep the black pigment which is part of the nzkc breed standard for whites. we were told white pups have peach coloured ears only, if there's colour anywhere else then the pup is a cream which i gues is pretty close to your stripe rule CM.

In our litter we had this year, we had two creams and three whites. The whites did have peach color in their ears only and they get whiter as they age. The creams were a yellow cream and quite different in color from our whites. We had not apricots. The creams are solid cream throughout.

 

[spoospirit]

The lovely Taffy. She has the most beautiful spun gold look to her coat.

 

[patalina]

Here's another picture of Louis' coat changing color from a light cream (blonde) to a dark apricot (strawberry blonde?) color. This was taken just now...has anyone else's apricot darkened from a very light puppy coat to a darker adult coat? It seems the usual pattern is for coats to clear from dark to light and not the other way around? :alberteinstein:

He is a mix, so maybe this is the pomeranian in him though according to pom owners they usually lighten too...don't know where my guy got this darkening gene lol.

 

[spoospirit]

I have heard of this happening with apricot poodles. Actually, when I picked up Taffy, I was told she could go either way. They had had apricot pups who had darkened rather than lightened. Taffy, in two years, lighten very little and in some areas actually darkened to a deep red/gold.

 

[3dogs]

Wow I find this very interesting. With Leif I always considered him a Cream. I got him from Rescue so don't know what he was as a pup. I put him as a Cream since his ears when they have hair on them have a touch of color, cream/light apricot just in places. So, I assumed he was a Cream. He has no other areas like this on his body & as one can see from his pictures he has decent length to see markings/coloring. I haven't compared him to a known white but that would be interesting to see if I can see a color marking on his backside next to a known white Poodle.

 

[outwest]

I have heard of this happening with apricot poodles. Actually, when I picked up Taffy, I was told she could go either way. They had had apricot pups who had darkened rather than lightened. Taffy, in two years, lighten very little and in some areas actually darkened to a deep red/gold.

I now consider Bonnie a light apricot (my husband calls her 'champagne'). She darkened rather than lightened and completely changed hue. She was likely a light apricot puppy rather than a cream puppy. The tone of her coat was not as orange as a little puppy as Taffy's was, but a tannish hue as you could see in her previous picture. What was similar with Taffy was the creamy white face and the marmalade color around her eyes (I love that). When I had Bonnie cut shorter last time she was a shade oranger and darker. Bonnie's color changes depending on the light. When the sun hits her she shimmers and glows. I think that might be a trait of apricots?

I doubt she will be as gorgeous a shade or as dark an apricot as Taffy is, but she is certainly not cream anymore. At 10 months old and only a tiny bit of coat change starting, I hesitate to predict. Especially after watching CM's Millie totally change color between 12-18 months! I am looking forward to seeing what happens, if anything.

I *think* creams always lighten.

 

[just_julie]

Sandy

Here's a pic of Sandy taken after her last groom two days ago she seems to be getting a lot lighter to us but she does have a darker orange looking stripe down her back but its not really dark and I think its getting lighter too.Her mom is a beautiful chocolate brown color and her dad is black out of a litter of 6 all were black except Sandy . Our groomer is her breeder and she told us that Sandy was the smallest of the pups but is now the biggest! We saw one of her litter mates and he is a lot smaller than she is .He is the only pup left as the original buyer had some RL problems and asked for a future litter instead so now.. I am trying to talk hubby into buying him rofl almost have him convinced !! I think Sandy would love a playmate as Sassy our pekinese is old and don't like to play with her. We will be getting Sandy spayed and also if we get her brother will have him fixed as well . I do NOT want to go through all the work I have read about here that comes with puppies !:ahhhhh::ahhhhh: Do you guys think she will remember he is her brother? And is it a good idea to have pups from the same litter?
I hope that worked...

 

[spoospirit]

Here's a pic of Sandy taken after her last groom two days ago she seems to be getting a lot lighter to us but she does have a darker orange looking stripe down her back but its not really dark and I think its getting lighter too.Her mom is a beautiful chocolate brown color and her dad is black out of a litter of 6 all were black except Sandy . Our groomer is her breeder and she told us that Sandy was the smallest of the pups but is now the biggest! We saw one of her litter mates and he is a lot smaller than she is .He is the only pup left as the original buyer had some RL problems and asked for a future litter instead so now.. I am trying to talk hubby into buying him rofl almost have him convinced !! I think Sandy would love a playmate as Sassy our pekinese is old and don't like to play with her. We will be getting Sandy spayed and also if we get her brother will have him fixed as well . I do NOT want to go through all the work I have read about here that comes with puppies !:ahhhhh::ahhhhh: Do you guys think she will remember he is her brother? And is it a good idea to have pups from the same litter?
I hope that worked...

I find it intriguing that so many puppies are registered as one color, but will be a completely different color as adults. She is so light as to appear to be cream.

I see the size issue also as something that is never guaranteed; at least as far as the size of the puppies are concerned. It really doesn't mean anything. We saw the same thing with our puppies. Larger ones are not so large now and smaller ones caught up and outsized their siblings. That is why we go by the size of the adults in the lines we breed as an average. Even then, a dog can mature to be larger or smaller.

I don't know if she will recognize her brother now. It's been quite a while. If you do end up getting him, I would introduce them as if they were not familiar with each other. I hope things work out for you.

 

[spoospirit]

I now consider Bonnie a light apricot (my husband calls her 'champagne'). She darkened rather than lightened and completely changed hue. She was likely a light apricot puppy rather than a cream puppy. The tone of her coat was not as orange as a little puppy as Taffy's was, but a tannish hue as you could see in her previous picture. What was similar with Taffy was the creamy white face and the marmalade color around her eyes (I love that). When I had Bonnie cut shorter last time she was a shade oranger and darker. Bonnie's color changes depending on the light. When the sun hits her she shimmers and glows. I think that might be a trait of apricots?

I doubt she will be as gorgeous a shade or as dark an apricot as Taffy is, but she is certainly not cream anymore. At 10 months old and only a tiny bit of coat change starting, I hesitate to predict. Especially after watching CM's Millie totally change color between 12-18 months! I am looking forward to seeing what happens, if anything.

I *think* creams always lighten.

Yes, Taffy is an incredible, glowing shade of red apricot. I was terribly disappointed when she did not work out for us for breeding. I was so hoping to get a chance to try to breed more with her coloring. It is just gorgeous to look at. And, she had the most beautiful personality; a true people dog.

Coat change can bring about color changes too. You can never be sure which way it goes. CM's girl's change was extremely dramatic to say the least! But, I find her beautiful in all her colors. She is such a well bred girl and it shows in her face. I expect you will see some difference as her permanent coat comes in.

 

[liljaker]

I find the whole cream/apricot color discussion interesting. Before I got Sunny, Denise had referred to him as a cream poodle, yet when I she transferred his Registration is states apricot as the "colour" ---- I have seen pics of his daughter and she is almost a double to Sunny's color and his mother had lots of darker red apricot. I am supposed to speak with her tonight or tomorrow and I am going to ask what color he was when he was a pup. Actually, his ears are very very apricot, as is the fur near his feet. Since he is 3 1/2, I wonder if he may continue to change?

 

[just_julie]

thanks for answering Spoospirit

I have tried researching size a lot and kind of understand how to measure her now (if she would hold still long enough) Her dad is about a head taller than her mom and she is almost as tall as her mom now from what I can tell ,they weren't side by side. But I am wondering if she may take after the father since she seems so tall and isn't even 6 months old yet? Or could she even possibly be even taller than he is? She seems to be growing very fast she stands on her back feet at my desk (loves to watch videos with me) and a week ago her head was around the level of my chin , today hubby noticed her head is higher than mine now!! Either she is growing or I am shrinking!! She is so loving and full of energy and keeps us laughing at all her silly antics I can't imagine not having her now and keep telling hubby another one will just be twice the fun! She has us both wrapped around her little paw! The Breeder said she is cream , btw.

 

[outwest]

Sandy is a very pretty cream and does look like a big girl. Getting her brother will be twice the work and twice the fun. There would be an adjustment period, but I like having two dogs (except when they are roughhousing and I am tired).

 

[Rowan]

Here's Pippin, my sable MPOO, scowling at the camera. I was holding some chicken but he just wanted to get down off the table.

I'm trying to grow out his topknot, but please excuse the messy banding. As with Merlin, I was too lazy to fix it before taking the pics.

 

[liljaker]

Rowan, Pippin looks very sweet. This "color" thread is a great one!

I did speak with Sunny's breeder today and asked her about his color when he was born. She said he was much darker apricot, so he definitely has lightened and he is 3 1/2. She said one of his offspring, a girl, is the color of butterscotch right now, but still young. I wish she had pics of him as a pup it would be interesting to watch the color change.