I think he's just telling you he knows what comes next and doesn't see any point in sitting when he's going to be running to get the ball.

Skip the fetch part and have him sit in front of you and take the ball from your hand, hold it for a moment and give it. Then have him sit, put the ball on the floor in front of him and have him pick it up and give it to you. Then have him sit, you move one step away from him, put the ball on the floor and have him come and pick it up and give it to you. Move farther and farther away, but always start with him in the sit before you put the ball down. Then have him sit and throw the ball towards him. Then have him sit and throw the ball as you normally do for a fetch. If at any point he declines to sit, just end the game and walk away. You can come back in a couple minutes and try again, but he doesn't get to play unless he sits.

This may take anywhere from a day to weeks, but don't progress until he is comfortable and happy doing what you ask.

 

It’s possible he doesn’t actually know what you’re asking. When it comes to smartie poodles, all it may have taken was one time throwing the ball for him when he backed up—or one time not throwing the ball when he sat—and now he’s just trying to recreate the desired outcome.

One thing I learned from Poodle Forum is that at that age it was super important to throw the ball (or feed the treat, etc.) the moment Peggy’s bum hit the floor. I mean, not even a split second of hesitation. With time you can build duration, but right now you’re building foundation. Make those connections crystal clear in Pippin’s head.

I think it’s also really important not to assume our poodles know what we’re asking. Sit in one context is not necessarily generalized to another context. This can get especially muddy when we keep repeating a cue despite not getting the desired results.

 

When it comes to smartie poodles, all it may have taken was one time throwing the ball for him when he backed up—or one time not throwing the ball when he sat—and now he’s just trying to recreate the desired outcome.

Thanks for the input, y'all! I'm going to try a few of these tips and see what works. Like quite a few things during teenagehood, we're having to circumvent a lot of weird behaviors we seem to have inadvertently taught him. 😅😭

@reraven123 The skill of developing a breakdown like this is invaluable! I struggle with it constantly. Communicating what I want to Pippin is a whole new language.

 

My poodles do that for fetch. They're anticipating the throw, I think. So I throw it in the opposite direction of where they're expecting. They do it inside, outside, doesn't matter. Change things up.

 

Just put him on a leash and show him what he needs to do. He’ll catch quickly. I think PGP is right that you must have inadvertently taught him to do that.

 

I would bring him in closer and couple the "sit" with a hand signal. I also often add the "down" command and hand signal in addition to the "sit" command. I feel that hand signals are important, because there may be circumstances where the auditory command may be obscured by ambient noise and other's commands.

 

Does it happen on other surfaces? Such as carpet grass or something with a bit more grip? If the successful completion rate goes up on a different surface. Even while still playing fetch that could be a good indicator. That it may be a learned behavior from the surface he's currently on. The front legs tend to slip out when they sit on a surface like that. That slippery surface may be making the problem worse. I agree with others couple the voice command with a hand signal. You might find after doing this for a while. You can actually get the dog to respond without even saying anything. They see the hand signal and just respond with the appropriate action. At least that's what I found with ours he responds to seven different non-verbal commands. His training started with hand signaling and verbal commands. I just took away the verbal part later. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. I'd say a good 90% of dog communication is through body language. Any noise they make is usually just saying to other dogs. Look over here look at my body language. We kind of do the same thing when we call their name. They start looking right at us that's why Dewys name is not used as his recall verbal cue. It's just an attention getter like look at me. Finger pointed to the ground with verbal cue place is his recall. Hand signals could be considered a form of body language. So it makes sense it would be very effective. Pitch and tone of a voice or barking dog can be effective to. I don't think it's near as effective though much more limited. It's interesting what you can do with nonverbal cues also. You can call the dog's name at a distance. When they look at you put them in a set and lay down plus stay command without saying another word.

 

Any noise they make is usually just saying to other dogs. Look over here look at my body language.

That's an interesting idea. Mia talks to me all the time - a huff to show displeasure, a puff to get my attention. Of course I'm missing other cues, I'm just so glad she found these.

 

I think both the anticipation of the throw and the slippery surface might have something to do with it, perhaps its easier to run for the fetch from a standing position and its too slippery to run off from a sit. Sometimes Winnie will do this if I am playing with her on the tiles and she is reluctant to sit if she knows she is going to run any second soon so I move her to a carpet or rug and get her to sit there which she is always happy to do.

 

He still does it on the carpet/grass, but his success rate is definitely better on these surfaces that have traction. Perhaps I'll start re-training fetch on the carpet, and then we'll reintroduce the laminate once he's more comfortable... We've been meaning to get a long runner rug for the hallway anyway, so maybe this will be good motivation for my husband. 😅

@Heartland2022 He actually does know hand signals and responds well to them--usually. Again, this fetch situation is a bizarre exception to everything hahaha. Our puppy class trainer had us do both verbal and hand signals, as she explained that some pups respond better to one style over the other. Your words on body language have me thinking--Pippin actually does respond better to hand signals than verbal cues (e.g. if I say "place" he sometimes doesn't know if I mean his bed or his crate, but if I point he knows immediately). I'll start re-incorporating these back into our fetch sessions.

Having a puppy is like getting a degree, with the amount of research and experimentation I've had to do! 🤣

 

I have to admit that he's VERY cute backing up. Love that wiggle he does. I'd have a hard time not letting him do it because it melts my heart!

 

It is SO funny. Especially since when he does it, his mouth is usually hanging open and the whole picture is just so derpy. 🤣

The butt wiggle is my husband's go-to dance move, so, you know, Pippin fits right in here. 😂

 

What everyone else said is true!

But also... have you ever been so excited or in love or angry or scared that your common sense flew out the window?! It happens!! Big feelings get the best of all of us vertebrates with complex nervous systems sometimes. 😉

It may be he doesn't know this context. It could be that you taught him to back up somehow inadvertently. But it also could be that OMG BALL IS COMING I LOVE BALL ALL THOUGHTS ARE BROKEN is happening too. lol

Try hiding the ball behind your back. See if the ball being out of sight takes the edge off of the excitement enough to execute the sit. (I'd also do the signal too, sign language is easier for dogs.)

There are plenty of dogs in class who get so excited by treats in hand that they have laser focus on the treat and pay zero attention to what ever boring human stuff is coming out of the human's mouth.

So I'd try that. Say the verbal cue, give the hand signal, and then pause a sec. HOLD the signal and do not keep repeating yourself. If he doesn't sit, put the ball behind your back and keep waiting. The INSTANT his butt touches the ground you throw that ball. With practice he'll learn he has to pay attention a little more in order to make the whole ball thing happen.

 

Thank you all for your advice!! You're the greatest. ❤ This is the update no one asked for.

It's been about a month. Pippin sits most of the time for fetch now. I'll call it a win. 🤣 It's taken a combination of tips from y'all, including working on carpet instead of hard floor, shaping, and waaaaaiting until the moment he sits to throw the ball. Also if he doesn't ever sit, I just end the game and walk away lol.

He's such a smart boy, and I am really confident that he's not sitting because he doesn't wanna, rather than he doesn't know. He doesn't like the slippery floor, AND he's just so amped to get that ball. Maybe we should just buy a rug for that hallway 😅

 

I’ve been trying to teach Beau to backup, and all he will do is sit. Scooch and sit again. I gave up but I’m trying again after reading this. 😎

 

A trainer told us that backing up was not intuitive for dogs, so they often struggle with it when it's first being taught. It's never been an issue for Pippin though. He's a weirdo in a house of weirdos. ❤