I think I wouldn't let my puppy play with puppies I don't know, whose owners I don't know. If I wanted my puppy to socialize with other puppies, I would watch the play style for a while, and if I didn't like anything, I would remove my puppy.

A size difference between the pups doesn't necessarily make them bad playmates; it's more about the play styles and personalities. If the play is very rambunctious and physical, big size differences aren't good. If the puppies are getting frightened and snapping, that's not good--in my opinion. Obviously others are more of the "let them work it out" school of thought.

I have let Sugarfoot socialize with other puppies. A friend of mine had a litter of Eskies around the same age as him, and another friend had a Golden, another a lab. At a couple of shows, we put all the puppies in a big x-pen and let them play, pretty much for hours and with minimal interference. Sugar was one of the bigger puppies, but he, the golden, and the lab were more mellow, and the Eskies were the spitfires. The puppies would play, pounce on each other, scold each other when wanting to be left alone, then sleep in exhausted lumps and start all over again. I do think that in that sort of situation, where you're sure everyone is of a good temperament and safe with each other, it's better for owners not to get involved, to let the pups have spats if needed. But not with a big size difference or if the puppy is scared.

This is just my opinion. But then, I am an over cautious owner and do not think dogs really "need" to be able to play with / greet other dogs (tolerate, be near without incident, work while they're around, yes; play with, no), nor do I visit dog parks. Someone who likes dog parks and wants a dog who can hold his own in one might have a very different outlook from me!

Hope this helps!

--Q

 

I agree with your instructor. Personally, when it comes to little puppies (not adults), I believe in letting them learn proper social interaction from each other in a controlled environment like this. Unless someone is showing true signs of distress, I'd let it go.

 

In our puppy kindergarten they encourage lots of casual interaction bw big and small dogs during class, but play at the end is separated big dog/little dog


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Quossom, Those puppies were all about the same size and sugarfoot was older than Jazz is. That seems like a good group. We'll see how it goes from here. I tend to think more like you. I don't want him skittish or nasty. It seems to me he plays endlessly with Bonnie and to a lesser degree with Echo. He does great with both of them and he is much smaller. I didn't like him snapping to protect himself, looking to me for protection and not getting it and I didn't like him potentially/unintentionally hurting that teeny tiny minpin, either.

I will keep going to the class because we are doing lots of great things in there, but not so sure about the free for all with playing.

 

I strongly believe that bullying is bad for puppies - either as the one doing it, or the one on the receiving end. And I also suspect that the reason small dogs have a reputation for being snappy is that they learned early that it was the only way to protect their space. Free play amongst pups should be tightly controlled - I am very uncomfortable with the idea of leaving them to work it out, when there is such a difference in size and play styles. In fact, I much preferred to socialise my tiny pups with nice adult dogs, who understood how to self-handicap, and taught my pups good dog etiquette from the start. I taught them that between my feet was their safe place, and I would protect them from people, dogs, steam rollers, or whatever, wherever we were.

Sophy spent the first few weeks of puppy class glued to my side - but by the end of the course she was actively seeking out playmates. Much the best way around, in my opinion!

 

I don't see how puppy kindergarten benefits young pups. It' seems to me kind of like the "blind leading the blind"-no offense to blind people) I would rather a pup learn "dog manners" from adult, well behaved dogs, who have the ability to convey boundaries more concisely and clearly. Add to that the possible disease risk? Common puppy diseases are transmitted through animal to animal contact..why would sterilizing the floors and walls make any difference?

 

I agree with this. I do believe in socializing the puppy at the very young age. I found a good daycare nearby that provide the puppy socialization but the puppy must undergo evaluation to know what sort of puppy he is. Is he pushy or shy puppy? Both type needs correction. So Charlie is corrected first before he is thrown into the midst of other puppies. Correction will increase his confidence and will benefit him and other puppies in socializing circles.

 

I personally would have been like you outwest, wanting to remove my puppy. I don't think it's good to allow puppies to bully or be bullied. That whole "let them work it out" thing is usually fine for "siblings" but can get ugly fast when all the dogs are unfamiliar with one another, even in puppies. They may not start fighting, but one pup will end up getting frightened while the other one keeps picking at it. They haven't learned boundaries at that age! Can you not find some pups that are around his size and have a similar play style? Or maybe some well mannered adults would work too.

 

I don't mind letting young puppies work it out for themselves, but I think the owner should be a secure attachment point. If the puppy is scared/nervous and is seeking protection, you should protect them and make sure they know you will keep them safe, let the pup hide behind your legs and ward off incoming pups until they are ready to venture out again.

 

When I had my girls in puppy kindergarten at 13 weeks, Sadie did hide behind me but Lacey was all over the bigger dogs - didn't seem to bother her a bit. After a while, Sadie became more playful with the others but was still a little timid. It really helped them socialize, and when I felt another pup was getting a little rough with one of my pups, I just picked minr up. It took a while, but up to this day, the girls love black labs!

 

I am not allowed to protect or pick Jazz up, but move away when he looks for reassurance. I don't like that and don't feel it is the best method at this age, but I am sure he'll be fine. He is growing incredibly fast and becoming more sure of himself daily. Bonnie teaches him proper doggy etiquette. Echo mostly ignores him. I feel most experiences at 8-16 weeks should be positive because at that age so much can leave a lasting effect.

I am trying to figure out how to handle it next class if the same thing happens.

 

Well, since I've been to exactly one puppy class so far and have had a puppy a total of almost three weeks now, let me spout my expert opinion

At Pearl's class, the puppies get about 30 seconds of free for all, then something structured, and then the trainer asks how everyone is doing. Then she tries to steer similar energy dogs towards each other. Repeat. So warm and fuzzy! Of course that's not the puppy playtime class, I hope we'll start that soon.

We're also rewarding for good social behavior, and staying in the mix to step on dropped leashes if things get out of hand. I like the more active training/problem solving approach. I would encourage you to use a little bit of time at this place for socialization, but remember that brief meetings and interactions may serve you better if you can get sniffs and meetings in without them having to get worn out or cranky or having to sort things out. Don't worry about getting your money's worth out of the time, remember short and sweeties valuable too.

 

If a dog is being picked on or picking on another dog, I strongly believe that they should be led away and not be allowed to practice bullying or being bullied so they have to become defensive. They can learn that they have to lash out in order to protect themself. It's better to have a dog who will walk away from an aggressive dog than one who feels that they need to stand and fight.

Ginger was attacked by my neighbor's dog. We worked through her DA. Now when she meets a bully, she just totally dismisses them and walks away, on to bigger and better things. That's what you want to teach puppies. The bully is left in the dust because they're not getting any reaction. They've just been dismissed and left in the dust for their poor behavior.

Being bullied and standing up for yourself doesn't teach confidence. It just teaches the dog that they have to resort to violence to get left alone and the situation gets worse, not better. Being made to feel defensive isn't confidence building. IMO.

 

Since we are talking about puppy kindergarten...what age do you think is best to start the classes at? I was hoping to get my puppy into a class very soon after we get him, but nothing is available until early January. He will be just over 4 months. He is a spoo...and looks like a big one at that! I am more worried about how I am going to react than how the dogs do!

 

Puppies can start puppy socialization right away (basically puppy play time and a little bit of basic). Most places will also have Puppy Basic (which is basic obedience but it's only for puppies and the age group will vary from place to place, but the most common is any under 6 months. They generally learn everything you would learn in dog basic here.

After 6 months for most places you would be signing up for Dog Basic.

The reason why it's worthwhile to do puppy socialization and Puppy basic is because you're just really opening up their world to more people/places/smells and it really helps with the strong socialization foundation you want to have.

 

Yeah, the sooner the better. Dr. Dunbar has a lot of info on this on his website.

It sounds excessive and can actually be excessive but if your puppy is of a temperament where they're likely to become DA, a bit of over kill with practicing positive socialization at such a young age can help to override or change it. Better safe than sorry.

 

I keep searching, but have been unable to find anything before the first of the year. I'm going to keep trying and try and do some of my own socializing. I am just not confident and get nervous around aggressive dogs. That is not a good mindset to have.:afraid:

 

Aria has had 4 puppy kindergarten classes so far but there is no free play. In fact our teacher practices a 3 second rule. Our puppies are aloud to stop and say hello but both owners are to count to 3 and lead them away. They are learning to be around other dogs but not let them be a distraction. Aria has been very successful in learning to focus only on me when there are other dogs around who are barking and pouncing. I have started taking her on 2 mile jogs and we have encountered a couple incidents where other people are out walking with their dogs who begin going crazy barking and yanking their leashes trying to go after Aria and I and here is my 4 month old puppy who just continues running beside me never breaking her pace and looking at those dogs like "what an idiot" I will admit, I chuckle to myself because my puppy is showing up those out of control adult dogs.

Of course, Aria also get a ton of socialization fun time with my parents dogs, and my aunts dogs and my other dog. And now that she has gotten the ok by our vet she has been introduced into the wonderful world of off leash dog parks! Where she has made a few new friends. Even off leash when she meets a new dog I count to 3 before I call her away and she always immediately comes that way there is no time for them to decide they don't like each other. And if another dog is playing too rough and she gets scared she will come and run to me and I will intercept and not let the other dog continue. It has worked out just fine and she is such a love who wants to be everyone's friend, kids, adults, and other dogs.


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In Ian Dunbar's sirius puppy training, he advocates lots of free play for the puppies. He wants the puppies to learn dog manners from one another. They start this with their littermates, but the developmental window for learning important things like how to give an inhibited bite remains open until 12 weeks. However puppies often leave their littermates around 7-8 weeks of age, leaving a very important 4-5 weeks that can be taken advantage of by puppy classes for young (under 12 week old) puppies. The only way for dogs to learn bite inhibition effectively is when they are puppies and the only entities from which they can learn this are other puppies. The reason puppy deciduous teeth are so sharp is to facilitate learning that lesson.

This doesn't mean the play shouldn't be carefully supervised. It should. Puppies that are feeling overwhelmed should also be allowed to take breaks from the play.