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Moyen Poodle size question

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21K views 29 replies 16 participants last post by  kontiki  
#1 ·
Hello! I am considering getting a moyen poodle and wanted to get a better understanding of what this size dog is like. The litter we are looking at is expected to be 25-30 pounds full grown and around 18 inches tall. For reference the mom is 30 pounds and the dad is around 23 pounds. We don't know anyone who has this size poodle and wanted to get a better understanding of what it is like to have this size dog.

We are also looking at a litter of miniature poodles. Does anyone have an opinion on what is better for apartment/city living? A miniature or moyen? We were hoping to take the dog for long walks and exercise so that is why we were looking into a moyen poodle.

If anyone has pictures / videos of a 25-30 pound moyen poodle that would be very helpful to get additional size references.

Thanks!
 
#2 · (Edited)
Hello and welcome! For an active dog who can handle lots of exercise, imho your biggest criterion is the need for a well-structured, well-bred puppy from proven and tested sire and dam. In this country, pretty much aside from a single breeder, you stand a better chance of achieving this from a Miniature breeder.

The Poodle Club of America, and thus the AKC, recognize three sizes of Poodles: Toy to 10"; Miniature to 15"; and Standards at over 15".

A responsible breeder who conformation shows or otherwise massively proves their dogs, tests to CHIC and beyond will breed puppies with the highest chance of healthy structure and temperament.

Moyen or medium Poodles have an unfortunate number of greeder breeders, because it's a catchy name to some, but also a nice size range. However, many try to achieve the size through inter-variety breeding, which can result in skeletal issues. They also cannot be shown in conformation and proven that way in the U.S. If the breeder you are considering uses imported medium Poodles from proven in the ring stock, then that is usually legitimate, because medium is recognized in FCI.

Www.fci.be/en/nomenclature/poodle-172.html

In your shoes, I might even look for a bit older pup held back to show, but who has gone oversize. Then you'd get a taller Poodle who has a solid background 😊. It's not uncommon for a Toy or Miniature to go oversize. My own Toy is about 11.5ish inches, maybe 12.

ETA Poodles have a height, not weight standard. Expect in general they tend to be a bit light considering their height. For crates, size up from the chart for this reason is great advice people here have posted.
 
#3 ·
Hello I have a moyen [Kallik]. I specifically chose a moyen for many reasons and it is perfect for me. My brother has a mini [on the small side]. I quite like the size mine is. He is not yet 1 and a half and is20"- 21" and 30 lbs. In the vid I linked he is 18" and 24 pounds at almost 7 months. The cream pom is 10 pounds and the black pom is 4 pounds for comparison. Both sizes will easily hike and have all the energy you would require so it really is just a size preference. Congrats on your future puppy!!!

 
#4 ·
I'm going to emphasize what Streetcar has said. If there are more than 10 breeders in the US breeding true medium variety poodles by using FCI medium poodles imported from Europe, I'll be happily surprised.

As desirable as that perceived size is for many families there are stumbling blocks. Streetcar mentioned confirmation and this is important.

You may not know that there simply aren't a huge number of quality, conscientious breeders to choose from, regardless of what variety, color, and pattern they have in their breeding program. These breeders are not doing this as a for-profit business. They do it for love of the breed.

Next, medium/moyen poodles are perceived by most new to poodles as a 15"-20" size. In the US and Canada that is a standard poodle per the breed standard. That means the breeder won't likely be using the conformation show ring to prove that their dogs meet the breed standard in temperament, structure, and soundness.

This is because, in spite of the fact that the standard variety starts at 15" there is a preferred height in the show ring, generally over 20". A smaller standard is going to have a very hard time being competitive. Keep in mind, the reason for showing is to prove their dog's quality. The ribbons and bragging rights are a bonus.

That said there are very, very few breeders working with the true medium variety, imported from FCI registry countries, and not just breeding intervariety, which would be a miniature to a standard.

There are a very few reasons for a very knowledgeable breeder to do so, but it won't be just to produce the intervariety size. Most of the breeders doing intervariety breeding are doing it as a business with the intention of producing income.

The litter we are looking at is expected to be 25-30 pounds full grown and around 18 inches tall.
The key word here is "expected". Unless this is a breeder with multiple generations of breeding from true medium poodles, there are standard poodle genes in those puppies. That means the potential for full standard size. Are you prepared for that?

Although standards officially start at 15" at the shoulder (where most folk think a medium/moyen poodle would), you'll see very few under 20-21" or under 35lbs.

In the US and Canada the breed standard calls for miniatures to be 10"-15" at the shoulder. Standard poodles start at 15".

The FCI medium poodle starts at just under 14" and goes to just under 18". This means that many US and Canadian miniatures are in the medium size range. Your "expected" 18" is a standard in any breed standard.

Pavie has put in some great work to classify a number of PF poodles. The third and fifth graphs show the range of miniatures and standards.

The suggestion for a miniature ia a good call because if they go oversize, as you'll see several are in the graph, they'll still not exceed your preference,

They're not likely to hit it either. 30lbs, let alone 35lbs is not common, even with oversize minis.
Since standards are typically starting their "small" side at your upper limit, and there's no way to guarantee that a smaller pup from small parents still won't outgrow them noticeably, they're very much a roll the dice choice.
That sweet spot isn't really populated in the poodle world.

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All this said, a miniature variety poodle is a great size for apartment, city living, and after they mature are quite capable of taking long walks, go hiking, or just hang out. Temperament is going to be very important for you, as well as poodles from parents properly health tested to the Poodle Club of America recommendations. Knees and hips should be evaluated before breeding.

Picture without some perspective won't be very helpful. I have miniature boys so I'll add a few photos that offer perspective.

It is within the forum rules, so if you care to name the breeder, we can tell you if they're one of the rare, conscientious ones. A search on the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals health testing database will show if there's been any published health testing.
 
#9 · (Edited)
It disappoints me to see the term 'Moyen' become acceptable in North American Poodle circles.
Moyen is not an English word, it's French. 'Miniature' is its English translation.
'Cute' breeders will use Moyen to make you think you're getting something special. It's not...
not so , in Germany and France and to an extent in the U.K. the moyen or klein is most definitely a recognised and separate size and especially in the first two countries is not uncommon . I don’t think it’s seen in the show ring at all .
moyen translates as medium , klein can mean small , certainly in my version of English any way !

mine by the way is around 20” tall and just over 30 lbs and we think it’s a great size
 
#7 ·
Welcome! Since healthy, well-bred poodles are inherently athletic, for city living I’d focus more on temperament and energy levels than size. I would personally prioritize a breeder who temperament tests their litters at 7 weeks. Here’s some more info on that: Temperament Testing - Video Examples

Based on my experiences with dogs in apartments, I’d guess you want a puppy who can roll with the punches, relaxes easily, and has been well socialized.
 
#12 ·
Hang on a moment here folks. This is not the way to welcome a new poodle lover to our forum. Let's not devolve this thread into an argument over moyen poodles. Moyen is a completely legitimate size in countries operating under FCI breed standards. Neither the US nor the Canadian kennel clubs adhere to FCI standards, so show quality breeders working within this size range are pretty rare on this side of the Atlantic. However, all breeders should know what size range this describes; I think it can be a useful shorthand even on the western side of the Atlantic.
 
#13 ·
As Pavie's chart shows, the small standard poodle size is exceptionally rare in North America. (I personally think this gap may be one of the reasons that cockerpoos and other small doodles are so popular; buyers who want a non-shedding dog in this size range have few options apart from doodles and Lagatto Romagnolos.)

As long as your dog is small enough to be portable (however you define portability, as people vary in their health and car size,) I think personality makes a much bigger difference than size as far as a dog's ability to thrive in an apartment. As anyone who has ever owned a Jack Russell terrier can attest, some small dogs pack an inordinate amount of energy into their tiny bodies.

If size is a concern (for health reasons, or because the condo board has capped the size dog permitted in the building) then I would stick with a true miniature. Weird things can happen with standard poodle genetics. My boy Ritter came from the cross between a 35 pound mother and a 55 pound father. The breeder and I both thought he would end up in the 45-55 pound range. He's now 70 pounds and can comfortably rest his chin on the dining room table.
 
#14 ·
ALL mention of Moyens in this forum have ALL been answered with at least one comment on the difference between Minis and Moyens... except this one.
In this thread ALL commenters have gone along with this bastardization of the English language and Poodle classifications... except my comment.
Should no one comment on the confusion that the OP is creating?
 
#16 ·
I think we (myself) English are quite used to our language being …not certain I like the word bastardisation , but the language itself is for ever altering , or being altered . I myself find it highly amusing that the French , or some , use words such as Le fortnight , Le weekend , or Le sandwich …hmm not quite certain why all my le keep getting capitalised .
French was spoken in the English courts , at one time the English owned Normandy , so it goes on . The English and the French still appear to have a love /hate relationship .
We seem quite happy here to accommodate and adapt and acquire foreign words also , ie bungalow , kaput etc , etc

I doubt this comment is adding much to this , but please don’t get bothered by my language getting changed …even the spellings are different over the pond


As for the original post ….I hope you find the poodle of your dreams , whatever his/her size , having had standards in the past I didn’t want another one , down to my age and strength rather than anything else
 
#18 ·
Doe Valley Poodles, MA, range from small to average Standards. (My male is 43 lbs and 21-22 inches). The breeder does extensive genetic testing. She is planning a litter of smaller poodles. She has planned litters posted for 2023. She is also very responsive and will answer your questions. BTW she told me our poodle would be 45 lbs. He is 43-44 lbs.
 
#19 ·
Hello Mandy! Our Charlie is a Klein poodle, both parents came from Germany. At 3 years old he's about 17 inches and 23 pounds. We've had nothing but labs and one very special labradoodle in our marriage and I was thrilled to retire with a lap dog! He's easy to snuggle with, travel with, and scoop up when needed. I would highly recommend this size dog! Plus he's sweet-tempered, [too] smart, and a joy to be with!
For size reference, he's with my husband in the truck, waiting impatiently in the side-by-side for a ride, with my mother-in-law, and my 2 year old granddaughter!

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#20 ·
Hello! I am considering getting a moyen poodle and wanted to get a better understanding of what this size dog is like. The litter we are looking at is expected to be 25-30 pounds full grown and around 18 inches tall. For reference the mom is 30 pounds and the dad is around 23 pounds. We don't know anyone who has this size poodle and wanted to get a better understanding of what it is like to have this size dog.

We are also looking at a litter of miniature poodles. Does anyone have an opinion on what is better for apartment/city living? A miniature or moyen? We were hoping to take the dog for long walks and exercise so that is why we were looking into a moyen poodle.

If anyone has pictures / videos of a 25-30 pound moyen poodle that would be very helpful to get additional size references.Thanks!
Mandy! At first I almost didn't even bother to read you thread, but I am glad I clicked on it! I normally skip anything containing doodle or moyen, as they almost always are uninfomed people looking for an in the moment fad dog. So not sure why I kept reading.

I am so curious, where do you live? If in the US, (or Canada), please listen to most of the posters here and realize that on this side of the pond there are three official breed sizes, and that people catering to your terminology are taking advantage of lack of education of the buyer/owner in the poodle breeder world, and most likely have not the top breed and health qualifications.

But if you are in Europe, Moyen and Klein are quite normal! Then what I would recommend are to look for quality breeders there. There are many threads that go into how to find a quality breeder.

Best of luck, and please ignore any people who think there is only one way to look at things.
 
#27 ·
In America, the AKC recognizes three sizes of poodles, and Charlie is considered a large Miniature or a small Standard. In Europe, four sizes of poodles are officially recognized: Toy, Miniature, Moyen (or Klein in Germany) and Standard. So if we lived in Europe, he would have his own category, as his parents were both registered Klein poodles. However, he doesn't care what he's called (and neither do we), only that he's called to dinner!!
 
#28 · (Edited)
For reference, some breed standard history (various) copied from another thread:


The difference between the use of the term variety and size is unclear for a lot of folks out in the internet wild.

The different varieties are defined by their genetics with generations of breeding same to same behind them, setting traits which include size range. However, in the various registries, they are classified by size alone.

AKC/PCA
Official Standard of the Poodle
The Standard for the Poodle (Toy variety) is the same as for the Standard and Miniature varieties except as regards heights.
General Appearance: Carriage and Condition – That of a very active, intelligent and elegant- appearing dog, squarely built, well proportioned, moving soundly and carrying himself proudly. Properly clipped in the traditional fashion and carefully groomed, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself.


FCI
The Standard Poodle must be the enlarged and developed replica of the Medium Poodle of which it retains the same characteristics.

The Miniature Poodle must display the appearance of a reduced Medium Poodle, retaining as much as possible the same proportions and without presenting any sign of dwarfism.

The Toy Poodle maintains, in its ensemble, the aspect of a Miniature Poodle and the same general proportions complying with all the points of the standard.




Size (height at shoulder) is used to categorize them in the purebred registries, partly for competitive events so there is parity among the dogs.


The FCI is the only registry that I've seen that has both lower and upper limits for all of their varieties.

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This is the only somewhat detailed and fairly contemporary description of how the FCI Medium came to be that I've ever found.
Dog Standard Poodle Carnivores Poodle Working animal




from:
Poodles » JaneDogs

janedogs.com
https://janedogs.com/about-jane-harvey/

If you go way back to the early years of the UK Kennel Club and the AKC you'll find that some height-for-variety has changed, and weight was mentioned.

This data is from the Poodle History Project, now residing only in the Internet Archive.

Breed standards: The Poodle Club (1886)
The Toy Poodle:
The Toy Poodle should resemble the Poodle in every respect except:
Coat: often softer and silky.
Height: under 12 inches.
Weight: under 10 pounds.



Breed standards: USA--American Kennel Club
Standard published in the United States in 1901

Weight limits: The weights are divided into sizes, viz:
Large size, over 40 pounds.
Medium size, over 20 pounds to 40 pounds inclusive.
Small size, 20 pounds or under.

The Toy Poodle: The Toy Poodle should resemble the Poodle in every respect except: Coat: often softer and silky. Height: under 12 inches. Weight: under 10 pounds. (This was added in 1905 in U.S.)

The above page linked has the Breed Standard for the US/AKC 1901, 1905, 1916, 1929, and 1959.

This page offers first person accounts of the changes happening by respected, well-known breeders of the era.