Hello,

I’m not an expert but Moyens are not small standards. They are a separate size, in Europe (there are 3 poodle sizes in North America and 4 in Europe). You breed a Moyen to a Moyen to get a Moyen, just like you breed a toy to a toy or a standard to a standard. Moyen simply means «*medium*» in French.

She would have to import dogs from Europe to legitimately claim she has Moyens.

So either she doesn’t know much about poodle sizes, or she’s dishonest.

 

Yeah, small spoos do not equal moyens. But a small spoo is a lovely size too.

And no, in my experience, boys are much easier in spoos. I have a very small sample size of one male and one female, though :lol: But I've had both sexes of many breeds over the years and looking back, the girls are much more neurotic, needy, and yet more independent. A boy will be in love with you, just totally devoted. Having said that, I love having one of each.

 

I will have to go back to her website and verify. Maybe I misunderstood her explanation of the Moyen. Thank you very much for the feedback on male vs. females. Jeez I think I am replying to MaizieFrosty but umm not sure. Still figuring out how to use this forum.

 

Dechi: Thank you for your response

 

If her "moyens" are just small standards then they will just have the same health issues as any standard poodle.

Personally I went with a boy when choosing my recent miniature pup for a few reasons, but the most important to me was that I knew I would be waiting until maturity for spay/neuter (or possibly vasectomy) due to health reasons and my schedule can be somewhat unpredictable, so I knew I did not want to risk having a female dog go into her first heat when I have to be out of town. I also feel that males are usually stereotyped as a bit easier going and a bit less prone to dog aggression. But also more goofy and with a delayed maturation. I have noticed a preference for females in poodles, but I think that may just go with the stereotype that poodles are feminine.

But beware, if you have a male poodle, people will always call him a girl because they are pretty!

 

I agree with what Dechi said. In the USA the AKC has not recognized the moyen/klein size. In Europe they have 4 distinct sizes. I do not believe you can just breed a small standard to another small standard and decide you now have a moyen. Its kinda like taking two under sized miniatures and thinking you now have toy sized. I'm not so sure about that being ethical. But I am no expert on it so do your due diligence. Just be sure you are buying from a reputable breeder who has health tested her breeding stock and can show you perhaps some show titles. I personally find males easier to train. I have had both (not necessarily poodles). But poodles are smart so either will make a good choice. I think most females are more independent and more dominant . That has been my experience.

 

You are the second person that said females are more independent. It does make me feel better about considering a male but I sure haven't noticed the same with dogs I have had. My females (maybe not my small terrier mix if she is digging for a rodent will check that I am still behind them. Wait at an intersection to see which way I want to go. My males will be slow to notice I have stopped and start up a trail at the intersection before I have given the OK. Not that they don't come as soon as I call but.... Still they have been wonderful dogs

 

I have a boy poodle and a female poodle mix. My boy is spectacular is so many different ways than the girl. He is cuddlier, quicker to learn, wants to please me more than my girl does. He listens much better, and while he is the alpha dog, he kind of sucks at it as he is not dominant at all. He is still trying(not too successfully) to set boundaries for the girl. I have always bonded better with males than females of any breed. It just seems to be much deeper. The males always wanted to be right with me, and the girls tend to want to wander off and do their own stuff. So I guess I would agree that females can be more independent. Just my personal observations with the dogs I have had. Hope you find your perfect pup! Good luck on your search.

 

But beware, if you have a male poodle, people will always call him a girl because they are pretty!



LOL This is so so true. Everyone always referred to Renn as a girl. Now that he is filling out more at almost 2 not as much.

 

And when they’re toys, people think they’re girls, and puppies even when older adults...

 

Moyen

I told you people I am stupid when it comes to a forum. I just deleted Lily cd accidently. I hit the wrong thing. Anyway. I read your reply. I went back into the Poodle Breeders site and reread what she had said about her breeding of the Moyen. She used an oversized Miniature sire and a small petite Standard Dam. So I told you guys wrong. Sorry. Hopefully I can learn to use this forum better. Sorry Lily cd

 

I told you people I am stupid when it comes to a forum. I just deleted Lily cd accidently. I hit the wrong thing. Anyway. I read your reply. I went back into the Poodle Breeders site and reread what she had said about her breeding of the Moyen. She used an oversized Miniature sire and a small petite Standard Dam. So I told you guys wrong. Sorry. Hopefully I can learn to use this forum better. Sorry Lily cd

You can’t erase other people’s posts. Not even your own. It’s just not possible.

What you found out is not any better, even worse. Breeding inter-variety shouldn’t be done. Even though they’re the same breed, they don’t look exactly the same, mainly in bone size, and mixing them is not a good idea because we want every size to look like it should.

 

Agree with Dechi. I think Crabapple may have been good at one time, but their reputation is not good now. I would steer FAR clear!!!

 

I did a google search for Crabapple Poodles and found some PF threads which focus on Crabapple Poodles, with one giving an account of their visit to the kennel. The latest of these threads is dated 2016.

https://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/212585-i-found-wonderful-breeder.html

https://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/142770-puppy-intro-post-meet-lena.html

https://www.poodleforum.com/2-member-introductions/240914-considering-poodle.html

https://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/32618-desjardins-crabapple-downs.html

I haven't gone further to see longer term reports on their poodles, but one member posting is still active in PF. Maybe a PM to them could get you some answers from an owner of a Crabapple poodle.

 

I have a "moyen" who's actually a mini - Shilo, 18 months old, is an oversized, 16.75in/20 lb silver beige out of two 15-inch silver parents. When it comes to "moyen", it is a sensitive issue for the same reason as doodles - many breeders have tried to take advantage of their popularity and make a quick buck by breeding indiscriminately at the expense of health/temperament.

You will also find a lot of different opinions even among well-intentioned, knowledgeable people. Some denounce inter-variety breeding categorically (breeding a standard to a mini), while others feel if done correctly, it's a good way to add genetic diversity/improve health, especially for standard poodles (because standards are generally shorter-lived and suffer from more genetic bottlenecks than minis). I personally think common sense dictates that it's a bad idea to breed an extremely large dog to an extremely small dog, BUT - assuming all health tests have been done and other factors have been vetted, I don't see a problem with breeding a 17-inch oversized mini to a 21-inch small standard - I don't see how that would be any different than breeding a 21-inch standard to a 25-inch standard. It's the extreme size difference that matters, not whether one dog is technically one variety and the other is technically another variety.

Frankly, when you interact with Shilo, he looks and acts much more like a standard than a mini, even though he's technically a mini. I also have a "real" mini, Vontae, who's 13 inches/15 lbs, and they feel like two different varieties. I've attached photos below for your reference - Shilo the moyen/oversized mini is the lighter color/bigger dog.

Before you make a decision, I would suggest asking this and any other breeders you're considering about their breeding practices/philosophies, and what health tests they've conducted on their dogs, and visit the breeder/their dogs/their puppies with a critical eye and mind, and make your decision based on these rather than any overarching generalizations about moyens.

Good luck!

Kevin

 

I have a "moyen" who's actually a mini - Shilo, 18 months old, is an oversized, 16.75in/20 lb silver beige out of two 15-inch silver parents. When it comes to "moyen", it is a sensitive issue for the same reason as doodles - many breeders have tried to take advantage of their popularity and make a quick buck by breeding indiscriminately at the expense of health/temperament.

You will also find a lot of different opinions even among well-intentioned, knowledgeable people. Some denounce inter-variety breeding categorically (breeding a standard to a mini), while others feel if done correctly, it's a good way to add genetic diversity/improve health, especially for standard poodles (because standards are generally shorter-lived and suffer from more genetic bottlenecks than minis). I personally think common sense dictates that it's a bad idea to breed an extremely large dog to an extremely small dog, BUT - assuming all health tests have been done and other factors have been vetted, I don't see a problem with breeding a 17-inch oversized mini to a 21-inch small standard - I don't see how that would be any different than breeding a 21-inch standard to a 25-inch standard. It's the extreme size difference that matters, not whether one dog is technically one variety and the other is technically another variety.

Frankly, when you interact with Shilo, he looks and acts much more like a standard than a mini, even though he's technically a mini. I also have a "real" mini, Vontae, who's 13 inches/15 lbs, and they feel like two different varieties. I've attached photos below for your reference - Shilo the moyen/oversized mini is the lighter color/bigger dog.

Before you make a decision, I would suggest asking this and any other breeders you're considering about their breeding practices/philosophies, and what health tests they've conducted on their dogs, and visit the breeder/their dogs/their puppies with a critical eye and mind, and make your decision based on these rather than any overarching generalizations about moyens.

Good luck!

Kevin

I tend to agree with breeding in such a way as to increase genetic diversity and that goes for other breeds where if done judiciously, an entirely different breed gets slipped in there once in a while. Something has to be done with our purebred dogs and these bottle necks or we're going to lose them at some point. They are just riddled with genetic maladies that no animal should have to suffer. (speaking of "suffering" from tail docking in another thread) Oh! The things humans do...

Off my other soap box now.


Oh, girl or boy? "Bitches rule, dogs drool." Well, that was said of Dobermans. I don't know about every breed. I gravitate toward the boys but I've had some lovely girls too. The boys in my life have tended to be more dependent. The girls have been affectionate and very trainable...on their terms. LOL. Nah...my little girl Chihuahua was every bit as attached and loving as my boys. :angel: Others in the past....too far back to really remember. Loved my female Lab...lovely...a little independent yes. But that's okay if it's not excessive. It means they're confident.

And it's true...all poodles, especially toys are girls, doncha know? Even when you tell the same people over and over that they're boys, they still say, "she" this or that.

 

I looked at the crabapple website. I did not like what I saw. She is just a mass breeder, maybe a step above a puppymill but you can do much better. You owe it to your future puppy to make sure they have the most ethical and careful upbringing.

The website isn't all bad, but just not what I would be looking for. There is no mention of hip testing which is a huge concern for standard poodles. She has too many dogs and produces too many litters to give each one the individual care and attention that I would want it to get. Her dogs all live in kennels (see the rehoming retired breeders page). And they are not well socialized based on her page about rehoming retired breeding dogs. She says they don't do well around men or children because they have rarely if ever met them. Yikes!

She also doesn't show in conformation or other sport. The reason we say this is so important is that it shows that a dog has a stable temperament and is adaptable. Temperament is soooooooo important. And trainability. There is no way of knowing what you are going to get from her.

 

OP be aware of leading with your head not your heart. I sent you a PM with a couple of recommendation now that I see you are looking in the Northeast, along with a couple of other thoughts on Crabapple. Also read the blog post linked to in this thread. https://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/271643-selecting-right-puppy.html


And Kevin, remember she is in the US. With limited exception there are no moyens here, just mostly smaller standards that people want to believe are moyens.

 

I would never waste my time on this breeder, after all the red flag warnings you've been given. So many GOOD breeders out there. Just mho.

 

I don't disagree with those of you who voice concerns over this breeder. There's something about her website that isn't my natural cup of tea too - her website comes across like she's claiming how great her dogs are because she wants to sell her dogs - no different from a mattress store claiming how great their mattresses are for the purpose of selling mattresses. The breeders whose websites and styles I naturally gravitate more towards, are ones who come across like they want to breed great dogs simply for the sake of breeding great dogs, and in the process of that, puppies sometimes become available.

On the other hand, it looks like this breeder is located very close to the OP? If it's no sweat to simply swing by and check her out, why not... I would not go out of my way to see this breeder, but if it's convenient to do so, I would probably go, just out of curiosity and just in case my biases are wrong.

In any case, good luck to Beverly, and hope you find a great pup at the end!

Kevin

 

On the other hand, it looks like this breeder is located very close to the OP? If it's no sweat to simply swing by and check her out, why not... I would not go out of my way to see this breeder, but if it's convenient to do so, I would probably go, just out of curiosity and just in case my biases are wrong.

In any case, good luck to Beverly, and hope you find a great pup at the end!

Kevin

Why not go ? Because when you’re in front of a cute little puppy, it’s hard not to fall in love. Her dogs aren’t bad looking, so chances are the OP will have a very hard time resisting. Why put yourself through this if in the long run, the breeder isn’t what anyone should look for in a breeder ?

I understand you probably have the temperament to walk away in such a situation. But most people don’t.

 

From her website, her description of her older pups speaks a lot. It just shows her dogs are not socialized at all. They remain in her facility, in their pens and enclosure, all their life. Why would anyone want to buy from her is a mystery to me.

About Older Pups
Older pups are not easier than young pups...they are actually "puppies frozen in time" and require as much work as a baby puppy, if not more. They need supervision, guidance, nurturing and training.They need a large, fenced in yard, not electronic, nor invisible. They need someone at home and available to help them adjust to a strange new world. They are very homesick for a month or two. The world, as they know, it suddenly disappears on them.They are initially wary of men and prefer the company of women because they have been cared for by women all their young lives. They suffer from separation anxiety if left home all alone and can quickly develop the destructive behaviors that go with separation anxiety. The are definitely "special needs" poodles and are more like rescue dogs in that they need a lot of love, a lot of patience and a lot of your time. In return, they will adore you, you will become the center of their universe and they will want to be by your side 24/7. They will become the best friend you have ever had.

 

Yeah that's a strange, completely false description of older pups - if well socialized, they are sooooo much easier than younger pups. I got Vontae when he just turned two, and Shilo when he was 9 months old, precisely because I didn't want to deal with puppyhood. And, boy were they so much easier to raise than Moses, my beloved Sheltie who came from an equally good breeder as a two-month-old pup. After he grew up and before he passed at 13, Moses was every bit as intelligent, affectionate and well-behaved as Vontae/Shilo, but a two-month-old required infinitely more work than a 2-year-old or a 9-month-old, provided that the 2-year-old/9-month-old had already led good lives up to that point.

Kevin

 

Kevin I actually have the impression that it is about 100 miles one way for the OP to get to this breeder and we are talking NE US. There are lots of spoo breeders in the NE who are good to great. Different people have different tolerances for driving though.


As with any breeder the OP will have to put their rule with the head not the heart on when looking at adorable pups.

 

Oh if it's 100 miles.... That definitely would stop me on my track!

 

I don't think this breeder is worth all the pages on this thread...all this discussion. It's a no brainer. This breeder should be put out of your mind completely. Don't play with fire. This is, as it was said, one notch above a puppy mill. There are loads of excellent breeders who should be supported, not someone like this. Definitely a bad idea to even entertain the idea by visiting and a monumental waste of your time when you could be researching good breeders.

Get some recommendations and ideas from people here or go to a show and ask around for some known-to-be excellent breeders in your area and stop wasting your time, energy and emotions on this one. Time to switch tacks now. Get yourself a properly (all the appropriate tests) health tested (with proof!!!) puppy from a good genetic background, health and longevity, what did the ancestors die from and at what age...and one that is raised in the house and well started socialization before he leaves the breeder's home. Develop a relationship with the breeder you're going to likely use and be sure you have a good feeling of trust. Then the best puppy for you will fall right into place.

I wish you what you deserve and what every puppy deserves...to have a happy, healthy life. Supporting a poor breeder who's obviously in it for the money is perpetuating just the opposite for the future puppies. These kinds of greeders with puppies raised with little human contact because there are SO many of them need to be shut down and that happens by NOT supporting them.

Okay, I'm getting off my soap box. :act-up:

 

Boys@



I have had both. The sweetest I ever had was a little boy, mutt who came to the door, intact. Never a problem (although he did impregnate my dog in the process). I would agree on a small sample, (two dog friends), boys seem a bit easier going.

 

Hello! I have a true moyen from Great Lakes Poodles in Michigan. The breeder has three Klein poodles from Germany, and we have one of the pups. She also breeds slightly larger moyens, using her Klein male with her small standard females. Her poodles are health tested, and she's a very conscientious breeder.
Our Charlie is 15 weeks, a true joy, and will probably reach 20 lbs as an adult. The perfect lap size poodle for this former large dog (doodle) owner and lover of "poodleness"!

 

Now that’s what a moyen is !

 

Yes, her dogs are AKC registered. She just has to use the three existing recognized sizes. So Charlie is a "miniature" because that's the closest to his actual adult size.

 

According to our vet and some internet resources I’ve run across, all poodles are genetically the same. Size distinctions are a human construct, and whether a poodle is toy, miniature, moyen, or standard is determined solely by size.
* Toy: under 10” at highest point of shoulder
* Miniature: over 10” but under 15” at highest point of shoulder
* Moyen/Klein: between 15” and 20” at highest point of shoulder
* Standard: 20” and over at highest point of shoulder

** Moyen/Klein is not a recognized size for competition in the US — any poodle over 15” at the shoulder are considered Standard Poodles by the AKC.

Breeding a poodles of different sizes (a Standard with a Miniature, for example) in the hope of having a litter of on-the-smaller-side Standards (US) or Moyens (UK) still results in a litter of Poodles.

It took us forever (well, almost forever) to find our small Spoo 9 years ago. Breeders seems intent on creating HUGE Standard poodles. We finally found a responsible breeder with puppies from her female Standard and male Miniature. Our Ziggy is a small Standard — just 20” at the shoulder. And although he’s considered a Standard both in the US and in Europe, people often ask whether he’s a miniature (!) - which reinforces my feeling that people are now breeding for very large Standards.

FWIW, Ziggy is perfect in every way. ?

 

New, cute, trendy names fool too many people.

Tonka is not a Standard Poodle, he's a Caniche Royale.

Which is Standard Poodle in French.

 

Very interesting Karenm0.