My wife and I bred Bichons for many years and about 6 months ago our Portuguese Water Dog and last Bichon passed away. We are now ready for a new puppy. My wife wants another Bichon but recently I discovered information about Moyen Poodles and have fallen in love with this dog. It seems like a great compromise in that it is not as big as the standard and not as small as the miniature making it a medium size dog that seems easier to train, has less housebreaking issues than the Bichon and is sturdy enough to compete in obedience, would make a fine service dog or just a good companion on boat trips.
MoyenFan
Welcome to the forum. I presently have 2 Portuguese Water Dogs and plan to get a mini poodle to have as a playmate to my younger PWD. From what I understand, there are not very many true moyen poodles in the US. Most moyen come from Europe. There are many breeders in the US who call their dogs moyen, but they can be just oversized minis or small standards. Some breeders create this size by breeding minis to standards, which can create a short legged poodle.
I am not sure where you live, but Karbit Poodles in Nevada have true moyen poodles.
Whatever size poodle you get, please remember that genetic testing of the parents is very important, as well as getting the right temperament for you. I think size is not as important as those things.
Good luck on your search.
I am not sure where you live, but Karbit Poodles in Nevada have true moyen poodles.
Whatever size poodle you get, please remember that genetic testing of the parents is very important, as well as getting the right temperament for you. I think size is not as important as those things.
Good luck on your search.
We're very pleased with our "moyen" from Caralot Poodles.
Our Fletcher is just over 5.5 months old, and is right around 17" tall and 20lbs. He's got a little more growing to do, but probably not too much.
He's pretty calm in the house, but can gogogo when we're outside. He's very athletic (boy, can he jump!) intelligent, and we think he's beautiful!
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Our Fletcher is just over 5.5 months old, and is right around 17" tall and 20lbs. He's got a little more growing to do, but probably not too much.
He's pretty calm in the house, but can gogogo when we're outside. He's very athletic (boy, can he jump!) intelligent, and we think he's beautiful!
While Karbit is too far away from me, Caralot is within traveling distance and I am definitely interested in them. They do health testing and show their dogs in UKC and welcome visitors to see their dogs. They don't state on their website where they got their breeding dogs but the pictures of their dogs look very good in size and conformation.
Plus, I think Fletcher is adorable and would love to have a dog like him.
Plus, I think Fletcher is adorable and would love to have a dog like him.
Julie at Caralot is super nice! She can maybe come across as a bit abrupt when first talking to her, but then you realize she's just got a bold way of talking. She's actually really sweet and cares a TON about the Poodle as a breed and in particular the dogs they have in their breeding program and the pups they produce.
She has been there to answer my questions and offer encouragement. I love that she doesn't pretend to know everything about dogs and still seeks answers to the same questions that I've seen here on PF many times that basically boil down to "am I doing everything possible for my dog(s) to allow them to have the happiest, longest, healthiest life possible?"
I believe she has also shown AKC with her mini's? But I could be wrong about that.
I also think (I haven't actually spoken to Julie about this) that they did achieve their moyen sizes by breeding larger mini's to smaller standards, but I don't see that their dogs have short legs, disproportionate sized heads, or anything else that seems "off" about them. I think they were careful in their choices and they breed for health and temperament as well as looks.
When we went to meet and pick out our puppy, we got to meet the mother of the litter (Mia), who was lovely, smart, and couldn't have been sweeter. We also got to see several of their other dogs and they all looked very nice.
I've actually looked at as many pictures of moyen poodles as I can find and I don't see that Fletcher or any of the Caralot dogs look that much different from the pictures I've seen.
If we ever want to add another dog to our home, I wouldn't hesitate to go to Julie and Rebecca at Caralot; and for me that's basically the highest praise I can give.
She has been there to answer my questions and offer encouragement. I love that she doesn't pretend to know everything about dogs and still seeks answers to the same questions that I've seen here on PF many times that basically boil down to "am I doing everything possible for my dog(s) to allow them to have the happiest, longest, healthiest life possible?"
I believe she has also shown AKC with her mini's? But I could be wrong about that.
I also think (I haven't actually spoken to Julie about this) that they did achieve their moyen sizes by breeding larger mini's to smaller standards, but I don't see that their dogs have short legs, disproportionate sized heads, or anything else that seems "off" about them. I think they were careful in their choices and they breed for health and temperament as well as looks.
When we went to meet and pick out our puppy, we got to meet the mother of the litter (Mia), who was lovely, smart, and couldn't have been sweeter. We also got to see several of their other dogs and they all looked very nice.
I've actually looked at as many pictures of moyen poodles as I can find and I don't see that Fletcher or any of the Caralot dogs look that much different from the pictures I've seen.
If we ever want to add another dog to our home, I wouldn't hesitate to go to Julie and Rebecca at Caralot; and for me that's basically the highest praise I can give.
I wish you happy hunting for your Moyen or small Standard Poodle. You won't regret choosing a Poodle, whatever the size! We got our first Poodle, a SPOO, and are in love with the breed. Smart, joyful and athletic in so many beautiful colors too!
Welcome! I showed and bred bichons years ago (and toy poodles). Currently have a PWD, a poodle, a chihuahua and down to my last old lady bichon.
Welcome to PF! Hope to have you share, in your search for your 'perfect for you' poodle! Then when you find him/her we'll want lots and lots of baby pics of course!!!
Thanks for the warm welcomes everyone. Finding a Moyen Poodle puppy is a lot more difficult than I thought.
OK if I give up on the idea of obtaining a "true Moyen Poodle puppy" since I do not have any plans on traveling to Europe or even Nevada, how do I find either a well bred oversized miniature or a true small standard? I am still trying to convince my wife that a poodle is going to make a better companion dog than a Bichon. A medium sized poodle, to me, would be a great dog around the house plus enjoy getting on the boat to travel or compete in obedience events, or become a service dog visiting nursing homes and hospitals as we had done before with our Bichon and PWD. It seems so much easier if you are searching for a Lab or Golden Retriever, however in our case the dog has to be of the hypoallergenic variety. Again thanks to everyone. I do enjoy and benefit from the information.
Stan Major (386) 785-4396 DeLand Florida
Stan Major (386) 785-4396 DeLand Florida
Here are some thoughts:
Leslie Newing is the breeder referral person for the Poodle Club of America if you live east of the Mississippi (which you do). Here is her contact information.
Leslie Newing
Phone: (203) 255-3396
Email: pcabreederreferraleast@yahoo.com
Accepting calls from 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM Eastern time
I bet there is also a Poodle Club of Florida.
I agree that you might be better off looking for a larger size mini or a smaller standard in place of a very long search for a healthy and well-conformed moyen. If you have little or no color preference that will also hasten your search.
In terms of your wife, I would suggest taking a gentle path and let her decide for herself--because I think she will HAVE to fall to the side of the poodles. If you can find ways for her to meet "real" poodles up close and personal, she will fall for them in a heartbeat. You might bring up that poodles are retrievers and want to bring that toy back to you. My understanding is the Bichons were court lap dogs. Poodles, in general, will be much more engaged and engaging. Again, I would not try to convince your wife per se, I would suggest you get her to read about and see as many poodles as possible. (I know if my husband tries to change my mind I sometimes (? always ; ) dig in. If he just leaves information around it is easier to have me convince myself.
(Also, as a small aside, I think you are probably describing a therapy dog rather than a service dog?)
If there is a local poodle club, find out when their next agility or obedience trial is and attend. You will see brilliant dogs! That will be the best advertisement for why to get a poodle.
One last thing. When I was searching for a breeder I had to make a lot of calls and write a lot of emails to find the right one. Don't hesitate to devote a few months (or longer) to the search for the breeder and dog who is right for you. If you talk to a breeder who has no puppies planned for anytime soon, ask that breeder if he or she knows of another breeder that he or she could suggest.
Leslie Newing is the breeder referral person for the Poodle Club of America if you live east of the Mississippi (which you do). Here is her contact information.
Leslie Newing
Phone: (203) 255-3396
Email: pcabreederreferraleast@yahoo.com
Accepting calls from 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM Eastern time
I bet there is also a Poodle Club of Florida.
I agree that you might be better off looking for a larger size mini or a smaller standard in place of a very long search for a healthy and well-conformed moyen. If you have little or no color preference that will also hasten your search.
In terms of your wife, I would suggest taking a gentle path and let her decide for herself--because I think she will HAVE to fall to the side of the poodles. If you can find ways for her to meet "real" poodles up close and personal, she will fall for them in a heartbeat. You might bring up that poodles are retrievers and want to bring that toy back to you. My understanding is the Bichons were court lap dogs. Poodles, in general, will be much more engaged and engaging. Again, I would not try to convince your wife per se, I would suggest you get her to read about and see as many poodles as possible. (I know if my husband tries to change my mind I sometimes (? always ; ) dig in. If he just leaves information around it is easier to have me convince myself.
(Also, as a small aside, I think you are probably describing a therapy dog rather than a service dog?)
If there is a local poodle club, find out when their next agility or obedience trial is and attend. You will see brilliant dogs! That will be the best advertisement for why to get a poodle.
One last thing. When I was searching for a breeder I had to make a lot of calls and write a lot of emails to find the right one. Don't hesitate to devote a few months (or longer) to the search for the breeder and dog who is right for you. If you talk to a breeder who has no puppies planned for anytime soon, ask that breeder if he or she knows of another breeder that he or she could suggest.
Stan, I presently have 2 PWDs. My husband likes that size but I want a smaller dog now that I am getting older. So a medium sized poodle of around 25 lbs would be perfect, but I have come to the conclusion that a miniature sized poodle that is around 15" high, which is the maximum height for a mini, would still be a good size. It would be around 18 lbs instead of 25 lbs, but still big enough to be a sturdy dog. Poodles have longer legs than PWDs (in comparison to their body) so they are taller than you would expect.
Health and temperament are really the most important features, at least to my mind. So if you find a miniature breeder you like, ask for the temperament you want and if there is a choice, ask for the bigger of the dogs. If you concentrate too much on size, you might get a dog that is not suitable as a therapy or service dog.
So when I go looking for a poodle next year, it might be oversized if I get one from Caralot, or it might be within the AKC guidelines of 10-15" (12-18 lbs), although I would probably turn down a good temperament dog if it was the runt of the litter.
If the larger size is more important to you than me, you might want to look for standard breeders that do health testing and ask them if they breed towards the larger sized dogs or small standards. I would not go this route because I don't want a dog more than around 25 lbs, and a small standard can be 35-45 lbs, which is the size of a small female PWD. Neeka is 39 lbs and a very good size. I just want a smaller dog next time.
So I would advise contacting both miniature and standard breeders and ask about their size ranges and if they do any temperament testing (in addition to genetic testing). PCA breeders would be a good place to start, but the Internet is also a good source of initial information, which you can use to contact the breeders for more specific information.
When you find your poodle, please be sure to let us know and to post pictures.
Health and temperament are really the most important features, at least to my mind. So if you find a miniature breeder you like, ask for the temperament you want and if there is a choice, ask for the bigger of the dogs. If you concentrate too much on size, you might get a dog that is not suitable as a therapy or service dog.
So when I go looking for a poodle next year, it might be oversized if I get one from Caralot, or it might be within the AKC guidelines of 10-15" (12-18 lbs), although I would probably turn down a good temperament dog if it was the runt of the litter.
If the larger size is more important to you than me, you might want to look for standard breeders that do health testing and ask them if they breed towards the larger sized dogs or small standards. I would not go this route because I don't want a dog more than around 25 lbs, and a small standard can be 35-45 lbs, which is the size of a small female PWD. Neeka is 39 lbs and a very good size. I just want a smaller dog next time.
So I would advise contacting both miniature and standard breeders and ask about their size ranges and if they do any temperament testing (in addition to genetic testing). PCA breeders would be a good place to start, but the Internet is also a good source of initial information, which you can use to contact the breeders for more specific information.
When you find your poodle, please be sure to let us know and to post pictures.
Kalonece Poodles on Vancouver Island has a stellar litter of eight little girls, Standards, who we expect will be petite and dainty. Their gorgeous girl Pink, who is on the small side of average, was bred to our boy Quincy, who is a small Standard. Quincy's kids generally run from small average to small. Some of the kids from his last litter are 20" and 29 pounds at 7 1/2 months old. Kathi will ship to the right family. KALONECE POODLES - A FEW PUPPIES REMAINING
First of all I remember you mentioned something about obedience. Do you plan to do any training? Compete? Get titles? What did you do with your other dogs?
The reason I am asking is because my Rudy has a litter on the ground now that is 8 weeks old this weekend. The litter is in Portland, Oregon.
Dam is a 16 inch French imprort moyen (brown) with agility titles. There were 2 girls (1 black, 1 brown) and 4 boys (all black). We may have 2 black boys available when they get temperament tested and evaluated for conformation next Saturday, October 25th.
The tester will be Jac Harbour of Tudorose Poodles....an icon among poodle people.
Puppies should be in the 17-18 inch range with great bone and substance, nice temperaments. We are expecting them to all test with good performance potential. They should also do well in an active pet home but may be too much for someone who is expecting a couch potato or calm and laid back poodle.
Here is the litter pedigree.
Pedigree: Rudy X Bisous
PM me if you are interested and I will put you in touch with the dam owner in Oregon.
The reason I am asking is because my Rudy has a litter on the ground now that is 8 weeks old this weekend. The litter is in Portland, Oregon.
Dam is a 16 inch French imprort moyen (brown) with agility titles. There were 2 girls (1 black, 1 brown) and 4 boys (all black). We may have 2 black boys available when they get temperament tested and evaluated for conformation next Saturday, October 25th.
The tester will be Jac Harbour of Tudorose Poodles....an icon among poodle people.
Puppies should be in the 17-18 inch range with great bone and substance, nice temperaments. We are expecting them to all test with good performance potential. They should also do well in an active pet home but may be too much for someone who is expecting a couch potato or calm and laid back poodle.
Here is the litter pedigree.
Pedigree: Rudy X Bisous
PM me if you are interested and I will put you in touch with the dam owner in Oregon.
Hi and welcome !
Was owned by Bichons for 27 years. I got my first Poodle a Toy 5years ago. I am a convert ! When my last Bichon left us in July at age 17 we adopted another wonderful Toy.
Poodles are amazing no mater what size you choose !
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Was owned by Bichons for 27 years. I got my first Poodle a Toy 5years ago. I am a convert ! When my last Bichon left us in July at age 17 we adopted another wonderful Toy.
Poodles are amazing no mater what size you choose !
Sent from Petguide.com Free App
Hi MoyenFan--I am in the same boat. I too am looking for a Moyen sized Poodle that I hope to use as a therapy dog in hospitals & nursing homes.
Crabapple Downs in NH breeds moyens, but it is by breeding small Standard females to large Miniature males. Arlene's facebook page is quite active & full of pictures of grown up Moyens that do not appear to have short legs or big bodies. Her current litter is a male moyen that she bred herself from a standard x Mini cross, bred to a small standard female I believe. However, I have found it difficult to get enough information about her puppies to determine whether or not I would want one. Certainly her website is NOT one of the ones with links to OFA test results posted right on the litter's webpage.
I am leaning towards getting a small Standard Poodle myself. I live in the country and would like a bigger dog. On the other hand, Mini's that are oversized can be plenty sturdy and it's nice when they eat less, have smaller poops, and if they misbehave you can just pick them up! They fit in your lap better too.
Anyhow, if you do find a good Moyen breeder certainly let me know (after you have picked out and put a deposit on the puppy of your choosing first of course). I did contact Leslie for referrals and there are some small Standards available right now. There is also a list of puppies available on the Poodle Club of MA website.
Hope that helps. Welcome to the forum.
Crabapple Downs in NH breeds moyens, but it is by breeding small Standard females to large Miniature males. Arlene's facebook page is quite active & full of pictures of grown up Moyens that do not appear to have short legs or big bodies. Her current litter is a male moyen that she bred herself from a standard x Mini cross, bred to a small standard female I believe. However, I have found it difficult to get enough information about her puppies to determine whether or not I would want one. Certainly her website is NOT one of the ones with links to OFA test results posted right on the litter's webpage.
I am leaning towards getting a small Standard Poodle myself. I live in the country and would like a bigger dog. On the other hand, Mini's that are oversized can be plenty sturdy and it's nice when they eat less, have smaller poops, and if they misbehave you can just pick them up! They fit in your lap better too.
Anyhow, if you do find a good Moyen breeder certainly let me know (after you have picked out and put a deposit on the puppy of your choosing first of course). I did contact Leslie for referrals and there are some small Standards available right now. There is also a list of puppies available on the Poodle Club of MA website.
Hope that helps. Welcome to the forum.
Hi MoyenFan and welcome!
Like Pella, I looked into Crabapple Downs in NH and didn't find as much info on the puppies as I would like on the website. The Facebook page for Crabapple is quite active, however, and a lot of pictures of buyers' poodles come through daily/weekly with updates and posts. Crabapple appears to have a lot of repeat clients who wind up with more than one poodle at a time, or a long drive/flight across the US to get another pup after losing one to old age. After seeing pics of the adults and videos of the dogs (some of them getting agility titles, etc), I decided that a Moyen sized puppy from Crabapple might be the right one for us, since like Pella said, the proportions appear to be good (mini x standard can result in awkwardly assembled dogs with long legs or overly long body and short legs) and what I find from the owners is that the dogs are friendly, well-adjusted, and long-lived.
Anyway, I am going up November 20 and hope to come home with an apricot Moyen-sized girl.
Since the newest reply to your post appears to be October 20, 2014, you may have already found a breeder and puppy. How has your search gone and are you still considering a poodle over a bichon?
Like Pella, I looked into Crabapple Downs in NH and didn't find as much info on the puppies as I would like on the website. The Facebook page for Crabapple is quite active, however, and a lot of pictures of buyers' poodles come through daily/weekly with updates and posts. Crabapple appears to have a lot of repeat clients who wind up with more than one poodle at a time, or a long drive/flight across the US to get another pup after losing one to old age. After seeing pics of the adults and videos of the dogs (some of them getting agility titles, etc), I decided that a Moyen sized puppy from Crabapple might be the right one for us, since like Pella said, the proportions appear to be good (mini x standard can result in awkwardly assembled dogs with long legs or overly long body and short legs) and what I find from the owners is that the dogs are friendly, well-adjusted, and long-lived.
Anyway, I am going up November 20 and hope to come home with an apricot Moyen-sized girl.
Since the newest reply to your post appears to be October 20, 2014, you may have already found a breeder and puppy. How has your search gone and are you still considering a poodle over a bichon?
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