Have you thought of putting him in oil? It's a lot of work but might be worth it. I did this a few times with my toy and it wasn't to bad but she does have an improper coat as well as a lot less of it than a standard so maybe that is why. If you have the poodle book by Shirlee Kalstone you can look it up. I used biogrooms deep coat conditioner to do it.

 

Not much help to you, I know, but I think your description of the miseries of growing and maintaining the required show clip coat underline the need to change the show rules. It is perfectly possible to evaluate coat without the now mandatory excessive pompadour and mane - and probably much easier to evaluate the dog underneath it. And so many more excellent dogs would be shown if it were not for the marathon task of coat maintenance.

 

Dust/fine sand in the lower layer of the coat next to the skin? Deep Shampoo and Blow Dry followed by clip and lots of grooming? A trying time. I have always believed that showing is bad for the show dogs. It is for the breeders and showers egos and bottom line. The dogs often suffer.
Eric.

 

Dust/fine sand in the lower layer of the coat next to the skin? Deep Shampoo and Blow Dry followed by clip and lots of grooming? A trying time. I have always believed that showing is bad for the show dogs. It is for the breeders and showers egos and bottom line. The dogs often suffer.
Eric.

So with this statement, you're saying that all of us here at PF who have or do or will show their dogs are all about their own ego? Or their breeders' egos? And those who show are doing something bad for their dogs? And their dogs often suffer?

Maybe some dogs suffer. But over all, that statement is incredibly insulting AND inaccurate. I, for one would never do anything that was bad for my dog!!! And I seriously doubt that Puffy would either. Or most of the people who love and show their dogs as a sport. Sure, there are those who shouldn't be showing, whose dogs are clearly stressed out doing it and who may mistreat their dogs. There are those in any venue. But over all, for the most part...nah. I don't think so.

It's not all about egos. It's about finding out if dogs are structurally and mentally sound enough to warrant breeding them. It's about finding the best and about improving the breed in health, temperament and structural soundness. (that is health I guess) Without some kind of judging or standard to live up to, without criteria to compare dogs, all we'd have is byb and puppy mills and our dogs would really suffer...if you want to talk about suffering. Improving a breed takes something like a breed club and it's standards and proving that they are breed worthy. This is typically done by showing them.

It's also about meeting other people and the dogs enjoying the attention. Matisse loved showing. He trotted around that ring with his tail and head up high and wagged his tail furiously at the judge when he/she would approach him. He loved all the attention and fun of meeting new dogs and people. It was mentally stimulating to him to learn what he needed to show well and have a little change of pace for a day or a few days. I got pleasure out of having a dog that beat a lot of top notch dogs in the show ring, for winning group classes and getting his championship very early on. I wouldn't say it was a reflection on me (I didn't breed the dog) so it wasn't about my ego per say. But it was fun. And I was proud to own such a fine dog. But no, it certainly was not done for my ego. And I resent the false judgement.

Sure, maybe this exaggerated coat fancy is not necessary and often causes some unpleasantness for the dogs. But I wouldn't say they suffer generally.

Matisse went through it too. Lots of tangles. Every night for about an hour, more or less he'd lie on the kitchen table and we'd do the duty of brushing through his hair until there were no tangles. There were always a few that were particularly challenging where often, the best bet was to pick through with my fingers and untangle them. Occasionally, if it were in an inconspicuous place, I'd snip it out with the scissors. Who would know, right? Did he love it when once in a while, it would pull? Ouch. Of course not. Was he suffering? Hardly. All the while we were doing this little ritual, he got yummy treats off and on, lots of breaks where we had a little mini love fest, cuddles, a little play moment right there on the table. I had the TV on sometimes and my dog just lay there, sometimes falling asleep while I worked.

It is surely no picnic during this coat change time. It's probably worse with a great big dog...more hair, more tangles. But your hard work on Puffy will pay off in the end. You might enlist the help of a professional groomer...don't know if that would help or not. Or some of these products. I just used a little conditioner mixed with water as a mist or some kind of "detangler." I tried many. No more tears even. lol. Nothing really helped but keeping it moist helps keep the breakage to a minimum. I sure feel your pain and frustration. And I suspect you'd gladly cut it all off if you weren't under contract. That's too bad that you are. Is there a way to undo that? Or get out of it? Or is that not really what you want? I wish I could be of more help but I am no groomer. Do know though, that you're not alone, although your dog may be exceptionally difficult. Just keep plugging away. Eventually this will pass. Or talk to your breeder and tell what you're going through. See if she has any suggestions. You just keep on associating lots of good things (treats, snuggles, games) all the while you're working on him. Try not to let your frustrations take over. I know...easier said than done. Hang in there. If you have to, cut out a few of those stubborn knots. Talk to your breeder. (((hugs)))

Here's Matisse being mistreated and miserable.



Here he is right afterward. You'd think since he was so mistreated, he'd never be joyful again.

 

I feel your pain PD!!! I am so lucky since I just trim it short and I can manage it... I'm just throwing it out there for you - what do you use for your shampoo conditioner? I use Wahl shampoo and conditioner. While the conditioner's instruction says dilute it to 1:23, I apply it much much more generously. I'm lucky that Sammy's skin is very forgiving - but the thick application helps!

 

Teddy is going through a coat change, too, but his isn't coming in coarse, so my battle is different. Keep your eye on the prize. It sounds like you have a beautiful coat to look forward to. Do you take him to a professional groomer? I bathe Teddy myself, but what I am able to do doesn't hold a candle to the magic our groomer does. But we only see him every 5 weeks.

 

I read that one of the poodle entrants at Westminster had a team of ten aestheticians. Puffy is only nine short I bought Eqyss Survivor Super Detangler Shine, that someone on PF mentioned.

 

I searched for this product and it says it's for horses. Is there a product for dogs or does it matter? I really want to use a very good conditioner on Gunnar's beautiful white coat without changing his color. Any suggestions would be welcome. And if Eqyss Survivor Super Detangler Shine is okay to use on dogs, then I'll give it a try. Thanks!

 

I can't help but wonder if your seaside living doesn't contribute to the problem. I know how human hair responds to salt water and it is a mess if you are very curly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

White's tend to have worse coat changes than some of the other colors.
I'm using k9 keratin shampoo and conditioner and secret weapon and hypknotic on my show guy going through coat change. I also have a chris christensen long pinned slicker and a long tined madan poodle comb
Have you thought of shaving everything except hie neck/head/ears? The body hair would only take 6 months probably to grow back in and then you'd only have the head/neck/ear hair to deal with

 

I'm interested in the replies to this query. I've also experienced tangles so small that the comb runs through them. If you can locate them by feel, they can be separated gently by hand. My boy doesn't require the extremely long hair of AKC showing but still has enough in the wrong places to generate mats that regenerate overnight. I had a couple long work days this week that didn't permit the daily comb-through. Yesterday's professional groom left a few mats (she told me about them--it's okay, the focus was setting his first continental). I must make sure that he's absolutely tangle-free before boarding next week (work--there should be no work travel during coat change!)

Thanks for sharing so openly.

 

I can't imagine how hard a show coat is during coat change, but it sounds like you are definitely putting in the time and effort. I wonder if pudellvr's thought about your seaside location could be a factor, but of course that's something you can't change. Sorry I can only offer you my support, I don't have any advice but hope someone else's suggestion here will make it easier for both of you. Dolly is in coat change and I brush/comb her out everyday and sometimes twice, but she's not in a show coat so there's a big difference.

 

You certainly have my sympathies as well. I know I could not do a show coat. Poppy's coat change has been challenging enough and I can keep her short.

If you were in the US I would suggest Cowboy Magic Detangler, in a tube. It is for horses but really does work a charm for poodles too. Even with short hair Poppy was matting awfully on her chest and ears so I finally got this. It helped us tremendously. If there are shope, farm/ranch type stores which sell equine supplies, maybe they carry a similar product. Those nordic horses surely have tangled manes and tails there too!

Best of luck with this. I know you are very dedicated to making this work out.

 

Have we talked about brushing out his coat under a stand dryer? That can help a lot. For one thing, it quickly exposes the webbing, and the dryer sort of acts as a third hand and temporarily changes the coat texture to make it easier to brush out. A friend who swears by this technique lets the air do most of the work, and just gently pats the hair with the pin brush to coax out tangles.

You might also want to experiment with products. Silicone kind of gets a bad rap, but IMO it can make things much easier and is less problematic than oil-based products. Ice on Ice is an example of a silicone-based product.

My final suggestion is to make sure that you are getting his coat bone dry on the days that you bathe. Bathing and drying are your reset button, but won't work if you leave hair the least bit damp.

 

I have to agree with Verve in that drying completely is a key...but using a HV dryer is very helpful because it blows out those fine hairs that your dog is shedding that wrap around the new courser hair, causing the mats! Molly has a soft coat (much like a puppy coat) kept in a' kinda conti' and I think because of keeping her clean,conditioned and brushed everyday, mats have not been a problem! Complete line brushing before bath, use a good conditioner after shampoo, HV DRYER to blow out dry completely all help to remove those soft puppy hairs that tangle!!!!

I've been doing it for 5 years hahaha!!!

 

Thanks a lot to everyone for adding insight and sharing. It certainly is a tough time, and I think I may have just gotten unlucky in the coat change lottery with a dog who is genetically predispositioned to have a rough change over time.

I think it is just all about the dog, and not much about environmental factors. The Baltic is not particularly salty, just brackish. So we don't have that kind of air you have at ocean beaches where you can smell and almost feel the salt. Also, the sand doesn't seem to stick in his fur much. He doesn't not swim in it either. I am pretty convinced that he's just having a really difficult coat change, and as a first time poodle owner I am not quite able to deal with it. I didn't see it coming, and figured I was pretty capable as long as I put the effort in but...maybe not! I guess this is what it feels like to really try at something and still fail. A weird feeling.

While I am growing out the hair for show, Puffy's hair is not even all that long right now, so it isn't like I am facing the problems because his hair is super lengthy like you would see on many show puppies his age. His hair is considerably shorter than that, it's just particularly difficult. He was clipped at 8 months after the famed MIL incident, and in hindsight that was the best thing that could have happened because there is no way I could have gone through this coat change with really long show hair. Below I put up a picture of him and his sister who has much longer hair. I think that right now it will tangle badly at any length beyond half an inch. I have an appointment with him at our groomer next month for a haircut, but I think I will probably have to schedule a brushing session with her sometime sooner to see if she can help me. It seems like I just never can get everything out, and that this webbing is always present to some extent. Maybe if she could really get it out properly once then I would have better luck in the future. And maybe he does just have an impossible coat change, I am not sure!

Showing the dog is not my passion, but in order to have Puffy it is what I had to do, and I was open to it and figured it could be an interesting experience. We actually only have to go to a few shows with him and hopefully get a Finnish championship. I think he can do that because he got great reviews at 8 months at the Helsinki puppy show where he won best of opposite sex in breed. He is very beautiful and has great structure. And his temperament is wonderful. So we will go to a few shows and hope that we can get a title. Then, I will respectfully bow out of the game, as we are not looking to take over Westminster. I understand that showing is important to ensure the breed standard. And if that is what Puffy needs to do to be considered for having puppies in the future, then OK. If his beautiful, healthy and amazing nature can be passed on then it's worth it from my perspective, because the world should definitely have more Puffy's! I am actually hoping to get one of his future puppies in a few years. I'd do it again!

My groomer actually owns Puffy's father who is 8 years old. He also has a very coarse and curly coat (as did his mom) and she says that she can get away without brushing him for 2 weeks and the dog is fine! So this time shall pass. I was really surprised to learn that the woman who owns Puffy's sister (the show dog) said that the dog's coat has already gone through the change and it isn't tangling anymore. I wonder if this means the end could be in sight for us. However, all of Puffy's siblings are silver, so I wonder if their coats might be a bit different. He was the odd man out.

I think that my breeder would probably be pretty understanding. She wants me to take him to some shows, but there was no time limit on that, so if I really end up having to just shave him down during the coat change it probably won't be the end of the world. However, I have put so much time and work into the coat and always been able to manage it up until the last couple of weeks. It's also kind of cold here so I don't know if it would be comfortable to get shaved down. I am not ready to shave it yet, but if I can't get the situation under control then I will do it if I have to. That would be kind of a pity and I would feel like I failed. But maybe I just need a bit of professional help and the situation is actually more manageable than it seems.

I am going to hang in a bit longer and see if there isn't something that can be done. I will check out the products that were mentioned in this thread and see if I can't get ahold of some of them here. Maybe the groomer will have some insight. Thanks to everyone for your advice and thoughts.

 

You mentioned something that caught my eye: an experienced groomer can ABSOLUTELY help you get to a better place. With my first two show coats, I had somebody who had my back, who would periodically bail me out of jail and give me a perfectly mat-free coat to work with. It really helped to get that break.

You mentioned that his hair isn't even that long and it is matting, and you were thinking there was no way you could have kept a longer coat even if your MIL hadn't messed up. But here's the thing: ANY length of hair longer than about 1/2" is going to be a challenge during coat change. I'm not sure if that makes you feel better or worse. But it's something my mentor pointed out when I was floating the idea of shaving my first dog down and waiting out coat change. Her point is that it can go on long enough that soon enough you are back dealing with matting, so if you can, you're better off gutting it out.

Hang in there. Two friends of mine have cut dogs down, grown them back out again, and finished them. And the upside of that is that they are that much more mature when they go back out.

 

Option A) Cowboy Magic, silicone, oil, sometimes I use my own waxy conditioner.

Option B) Do they allow corded poodles in shows over there?

 

Verve, I really appreciate your encouragement. This is what I need to hear from someone who has already been through it. I think Puffy just needs a pro to get the coat web-free once and for all, and that I may then have a much easier time of things in the future. I don't want to shave all of the hair off. I don't even think it is good for a dog to be shaven down to less than an inch due to biological regulation reasons, and you are right that it would have to be less than half an inch for us not to be facing the issue.

I am not giving up on it, and I believe that with some professional help there is a light close enough here at the end of the tunnel. Also, the webbing is not even particularly tight. When the hair got badly matted in the MIL incident it was different. I think she just never touched the under layer for weeks, and so it was able to get very tightly matted. Those were painful to remove for Puffy, which is why I eventually decided to cut shorter. But these are a lot looser since he is combed every day, they are just everywhere and they don't seem to go away with my combing which is what has me stumped as a beginner. I just don't have the technique down yet, I think.

Then I am looking into this cowboy magic everyone keeps mentioning!

 

Whew, all of this is making me glad I decided not to show him. I have arthritis and brushing is very painful for me. Wishing you luck!

 

How's it going Puffdaddy? Did you try the dryer method? Or any of those products like Cowboy magic or what is it? I am sure thinking about you and hope things will get easier. It is really quite hard to cope with sometimes. I hope you keep us posted and let us know if anything is working better for you.

:hug:

 

Wow, your corded poodle is amazing. Is that hard to do?
Do you have people ask what kind of dog she is?

 

a) I googled a picture of a corded show poodle. Not mine.
b) I finally got my girls' cords nice enough to take pictures and was going to make a thread. (I dont want to hijack this one.)
c) It is not that hard, it just takes time.
d) It appears that as long as you shave the face and feet, people think it is a poodle or poodle cross.

 

Just wanted to chime in on the Cowboy Magic - I just got some last week and it is amazing! Absolutely the best stuff I've ever tried to help get out mats. I'm also in agreement that the corded poodle is just fantastic!

 

Thank you!

Hi friends,

to those of you who are still following this post I just wanted to give you an update. Things are going a lot better, and I am really thankful to everyone who posted here because it helped me get some perspective, and the advice I got pulled me out of the woods with that dastardly coat.

After reading all of your tips I got serious about line brushing and made really sure to get the dog 100% dry after baths among other things that were suggested here. SO MUCH HAIR came out of that coat in the weeks that followed, it was crazy. Despite the fact that I was putting in the effort before, I just wasn't prepared for how badly the coat would tangle while it was changing. So I fell behind and the tangles built up and I didn't understand why or how. But after getting all of the advice here, I really put it all into action and I detangled that thing!

I think it took me 3 weeks to really detangle it. Puffy was a saint and I gave him a lot of treats and would work n it about 45 minutes a day. But eventually we got it to a point where all the tangling was gone, and it was no longer re-tangling up again so quickly. I think that a lot of baby hair had shed or broken off very quickly and that is why the coat was so tangled. So much "dead hair" was stuck in it. Bottom line is that it had to be removed, and that was a challenge!

Also, our talks about showing and the necessity of the long coat were enlightening. I enjoyed it anyway. It helped me realize that there is no reason for us to keep the hair very long, and in a week I have an appointment with the groomer. I will keep growing out the neck and the topknot, but put the rest of the body into something a bit shorter and more manageable ( I know that it will still need it's share of brushing!). I will surely keep the modified continental look because he looks very sharp, I just love it. But I want Puffy to enjoy the summer and go swimming and make a mess of himself like dogs like to do. I realized that I don't really care when he starts showing, and my breeder doesn't either. he just should go when he is ready and I am ready. There is no rush. So while he is going through the coat change there isn't really a reason for me to stress us both out with these really long grooming sessions. That is one thing I took away from all of this.

I think if I get another poodle (ok, come on, I WILL) and it is going to show, I think that I will just keep it's hair relatively short while it is young and take it to show starting when it is 2 years old and the coat is more manageable. I don't think I would like to go through this again.

Anyway, that's just my perspective as someone who doesn't really love grooming a dog for almost an hour every day. I know some of you do enjoy your show coats and you treat your doggies very well. I can't wait for Puffy's haircut next week. Our groomer has such a good eye for poodle style, so I bet he will be looking super snazzy. And it will be easier to brush!

He is going for his trim the day before my mother arrives for a two week visit with us here. She lives in NY and I live in Finland, so you can imagine we don't get to see each other much. I can't wait! I am also excited for her to meet Puffy, because it will be the first time and I am so proud of him. He is so kind and handsome, I love introducing him to my friends and family who I don't get to see much, because they always find him such a joy!

I recently started my own company, so I have been so busy lately and not around much to chat, but I will be back, and I will surely post pics of his new hairdo, and some vacation photos with mom!

 

I admire your dedication to getting his coat all sorted out. I could not have dealt with that. It's a good and wise decision you have made to shorten his coat and lighten your burden of grooming. You and he will both enjoy the summer more.

How exciting that your Mother is coming for a visit. I am sure she will instantly be charmed by Puffy. He sounds like such a sweetie.

Good luck with your new business venture and enjoy your Mom's visit!

Viking Queen

 

You sound so much happier and I can see why. YES! The whole coat doesn't need to be super long. No one remembered to tell you that I guess. But next week, he's going to be so much easier to manage. You did a great job getting him back under control. Your idea of waiting until the coat change is definitely one way to go about it. My situation was to get him finished and cut it all off. lol. But yeah, keep the withers and a little behind pretty long and the head hair. Good luck with your business and have a wonderful visit with your Mom. No doubt she'll love Puffy.

 

Good for you for working through it!

Can you finish a dog as a puppy in Finland? The other approach, especially with a dog, is to finish ASAP as a puppy and then cut him down before coat change even hits. But as I recall some European titles require CCs as an adult (which is a good thing overall, IMO, but it keeps you in coat jail a while longer).