I bought Lou at 3.5 months old and we did puppy class, training, socializing with new people and dogs and she was totally cool. I can't speak for other dogs with different backgrounds and personalities.

But I LOVED buying an older puppy!!

So much easier to train, because she actually understood when I was training her, 8wk old puppies are too little for me, I'll never get a puppy that young, but that's just me


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I probably should have said that he is a toy poodle. Thank you for your quick response. He comes from a reputable breeder and she sent me videos of him and he's beautiful, tested and very smart. I just wanted to make sure I'll be able to socialize him properly at 16 weeks old without him having difficulty.

 

Nah, it's never too late to socialize. Everyone has to wait until they have all their puppy inoculations anyway. At 16 1/2 weeks you'll see the puppy's basic nature better too; you can definitely shape the basic nature but if a really outgoing puppy is what you're looking for, you'll see that personality trait by then. If the puppy is shy, you'll see that too. Helps in the long run for the lifestyle you want to lead.

 

Technically I believe the cut off for puppy socialisation is around 12 weeks - that is the age at which pups become rather more suspicious of new things. But it is perfectly possible to accustom pups to people, dogs and other new things beyond that age, provided you take care to ensure that they have lots and lots of happy experiences. It certainly helps if the breeder ensures they have wide ranging good experience in the early weeks, though.

 

Here are two very good things to read.

Socialization; What Is It Anyway?


From ‘The Culture Clash’ by Jean Donaldson.

Socialization means habituation, or getting used to environmental elements through exposure to them. In a natural setting, it is highly adaptive to increase distance between yourself and anything unusual and then to proceed with extreme caution when approaching. This is because unusual things are potentially very bad news. (They certainly aren’t necessary for survival because you’ve made it this far without them.) Animals adhere to rules governing social distance. So do we, if you think about it. We tolerate someone standing right next to us in a crowded elevator. Someone can walk up and stand right behind you if you’re in a line-up in the grocery store, but someone doing exactly the same thing when you’re in the driveway washing your car is a whole other story. We can also, like other animals, be very weird about being touched.

In animals, curiosity is antagonistic to fear, and usually less pronounced. While it is potentially adaptive to explore novel things in case they yield some advantage (especially in the case of predators), excessive curiosity would eventually result in exposure to danger and hence reproductive disadvantage. In other words, the cost of a false positive (spooking away from something that is in fact harmless or beneficial) is greatly outweighed by the cost of a false negative (failing to spook away from something that is dangerous). You can’t pass on those curious genes if you are dead or injured. Consider, for instance, what you’d think about any wild animal in the forest that didn’t flee from you or didn’t put on an aggressive display if you cornered it. Would you think he was a “nice” animal or would you think he was, say, sick? Avoidance of novelty is the default setting for animals. All these truths about animal are pretty self-evident. And, lest we forget, dogs are animals.

Because it would not be adaptive for animals to be continuously spooking at rocks and trees and bird song, a mechanism is wired in to ensure the animal habituates to normal environmental features. This is the socialization period, a finite time when young animals are much less fearful and are much more likely to approach and investigate novel things. And they readily form social bonds.

Adult animals can habituate to novel things too; it simply takes much longer. The socialization window cannot remain open forever. If it did, then you could have animals trotting up to you in the forest. Every species of animal has acquired, through natural selection, an average time to assimilate and accept things in their environment. After this period, they will behave to increase distance through fight/flight mechanisms, from anything to which they have not been socialized. There is also a “use it or lose it” clause: some animals will become increasingly fearful of things they may have encountered in the critical period but see too seldom thereafter.

Notice that the pressure is always in the direction of increasingly fearfulness and avoidance, never the other way. Artificial pressure needs to be constantly exerted to get animals to behave tolerantly. It must be actively bred for and /or installed in the socialization period and maintained thereafter. As soon as there is any weakness in this system, the animal starts leaning towards fight/flight. By definition, the socialization period , be it one day or several months, is what works well for that species in the environment which it evolved. In the case of domestic dogs, the socialization window closes somewhere between three and five months of age, depending on the breed and individual makeup, with easy habituation drying up by around four-and-a-half months of age in the majority of cases. These thresholds are a matter of consensus, by the way, not strong empirical research. Many of us would really, really like to know what’s going on regarding critical socialization periods in dogs, and any relevant details regarding breed differences. The trend among hard-core dog people is toward earlier and earlier formal socialization, i.e., puppy classes for puppies in the seven to eleven week old range. There is increasing willingness to balance the socialization imperative with the need for pathogen avoidance in young puppies with inadequate immunity.

The importance of a critical period for socialization is hard to overestimate. If, for instance, a puppy doesn’t get sufficient exposure to men with beards before the socialization clock runs out, the risk for fear responses and aggression directed at men with beards runs higher for that dog as an adult. It’s particularly wrinkly because dogs are expert discriminators: adequate socialization to women or eight-year-old kids, for example, does not guarantee a generalization to men or two-year-old kids. Therefore, it’s advisable to go way overboard covering all the bases before the socialization window closes, especially for spookier breeds or individuals. This means exposing the puppy to as wide a social sphere as possible in terms of human age groups, sexes, sizes, shapes, colors and gaits. The experiences should be positive (play, treats, nothing scary) and include a wide variety of patting, handling and movement by the humans. It also means getting the puppy used to anything it may have to encounter in later life, such as car rides, veterinary exams (make the first one or two fun rather than scary), cats, traffic, soccer games, elevators and pointy sticks.
Socialization; What Is It Anyway? - Regan's Dog Training

 

WHAT THE EXPERTS HAVE TO SAY

What the Experts Have to Say - Puppy Training and Socialization Resources - Operation Socialization

Here's what experts are saying about the importance of puppy socialization.

Veronica Boutelle; Jean Donaldson; Pat Miller; Karen Pryor: Julie K. Shaw : Meredith Stepita


Veronica Boutelle


Trainer: Veronica Boutelle
Business or Organization: dog*tec
Website: www.dogtec.org

Why is early socialization so important?

We are not a culture enamored of putting effort into prevention. But not actively socializing puppies is akin to keeping a child at home without opportunities to play with others or to experience the larger world, then being surprised when that child experiences grave difficulties navigating kindergarten. And the activities needed to socialize a puppy are actually great fun. There’s simply no excuse, and anyone who brings home a puppy with visions of a companionable adult dog must understand that socialization is critical to one day enjoying that dog. To not do so is to risk the terrible disappointment and stress of a dog who is shy or, worse, reactive or aggressive toward dogs or people.

What advice would you give a puppy owner who’s reluctant to socialize her puppy because she’s concerned about safety?

Take a look at what the top experts in the field are saying, such as the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior and the American SPCA, and new research such as Dr. Stepita's study on the frequency of parvovirus infection in puppies attending classes. It’s become clear that the risks of keeping puppies at home far, far outweigh the risks of taking them out and about. Unfortunately for the lives of dogs, that information has been slow to trickle down and change advice at the individual veterinarian level—to the heartbreak of many a dog owner.

How would you put a vet’s mind at ease when it comes to early socialization?

Show them the facts and the statements by organizations like AVSAB and the ASPCA. Start with the assumption that the vet knows at least as much as you do by opening with something like, “You’re probably already aware of these statements and studies, but I brought copies for your staff in case they might be useful.” Explain your cleaning and safety procedures in detail. Better yet, ask them for their advice on cleaning protocols and products. Engaging their expertise rather than questioning it can go a long way toward getting them on board.
.

Jean Donaldson


Name: Jean Donaldson
Business or Organization: The Academy for Dog Trainers
Website: www.academyfordogtrainers.com

Why is early socialization so important?

Puppies are not only widely believed to be in a sensitive period, biologically, but are encountering many very important things - people of all types, dogs apart from their littermates, sights, sounds etc. - for the first time, which, from a Pavlovian conditioning perspective, is noteworthy, as significant experiences of both negative and positive variety are sometimes indelible. So it behooves us to “pad” puppies with good experiences regarding things we want them to like, because inevitably life will throw them bad experiences. We have the luxury with puppies of some say over whether their first experiences with something are good, bad or neutral. So the bottom line is: maximum bang for buck.

What advice would you give a puppy owner who’s reluctant to socialize her puppy because she’s concerned about safety?

I’m not sure what the safety consideration is. Disease risk? This has been well addressed by veterinary behaviorists (see AVSAB position paper on this subject, Purdue U info and epidemiologist RK Anderson’s letter on this topic).

Anything else you’d like to share relating to early socialization?

Please avoid bad experiences, including but not limited to, traditional dog training methods.
.

Pat Miller


Name: Pat Miller, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, CDBC
Business or Organization: Peaceable Paws, LLC
Website: www.peaceablepaws.com

Why is early socialization so important?

There is a very small window of time during which a puppy learns what is safe and good in the world. A well-socialized puppy has an optimistic world view—assuming things are safe unless and until proven otherwise. A poorly-socialized puppy is fearful of much of the world, and all new things are suspect. Fear… often leads to defensive aggression, and eventual euthanasia.

What advice would you give a puppy owner who’s reluctant to socialize her puppy because she’s concerned about safety?

Kudos to the puppy owner who is concerned about safety. She’s right – it’s important to protect your puppy. Choose your socialization opportunities with care.
.

.

 

continued

Karen Pryor


Name: Karen Pryor
Business or Organization: Karen Pryor ClickerTraining; Karen Pryor Academy
Website: www.karenpryoracademy.com

Why is early socialization so important?

Puppies that grow up in a limited and deprived environment often develop into fearful adults, who socialize poorly with both humans and other dogs.

What advice would you give a puppy owner who’s reluctant to socialize her puppy because she’s concerned about safety?

Keep your puppy out of public spaces soiled by unknown dogs, but do find other dogs and a variety of people for your puppy to get to know, at its own speed.

How would you put a vet’s mind at ease when it comes to early socialization?

Refer them to the current recommendations of veterinary and veterinary behavior organizations.
.

Julie K.. Shaw


Name: Julie K. Shaw, KPA-CTP, RVT, VTS-Behavior
Business or Organization: Purdue University Animal Behavior Clinic, Karen Pryor Academy Faculty
Websites: www.vet.purdue.edu/animalbehavior; www.avbt.net; www.karenpryoracademy.com

Why is early socialization so important?

Once a puppy parent has aquired their puppy the gentics have already been determined and can not be changed. But, the puppy parent still has a strong influence on the kind of dog their puppy will become by making its socialization period full of positive experiences. Directing socialization and how the puppy learns can influence their puppy's mental and emotional health as much as the puppy's genetics.

What advice would you give a puppy owner who’s reluctant to socialize her puppy because she’s concerned about safety?

It is more likely your puppy will 1) lose its home because it develops behavior problems because it did not go to puppy class 2) come in contact with an infectious disease in your own back yard then at a well run puppy class. NOT properly socializing your puppy is neglecting your puppy's emotional health.

How would you put a vet’s mind at ease when it comes to early socialization?

I would direct them to statements made by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior pertaining to early puppy socialization.

Anything else you’d like to share relating to early socialization?

Attending a good puppy socialization class is the number one thing you can do to prevent behavior problems in your puppy.
.

Meredith Stepita


Name: Meredith Stepita, DVM, DACVB (Veterinary Behaviorist)
Business or Organization: East Bay Veterinary Specialists
Website: Behavior Modification

Why is early socialization so important?

Appropriate socialization helps to prevent behavior problems. Studies show that puppies that are not socialized during the first 3 months of life are more likely to be fearful, defensive, and possibly aggressive later in life. It has been estimated that ~250,000 dogs and cats are euthanized annually in US small animal veterinary practices as a direct result of behavior problems.

What advice would you give a puppy owner who’s reluctant to socialize her puppy because she’s concerned about safety?

According to the late Dr. RK Anderson, a pioneer in Veterinary Behavior, more dogs die of behavior problems than die of infectious disease. Pet owners however do need to be aware of the risk of infectious diseases young puppies are susceptible to and take precautions while socializing their puppies to minimize this risk. Puppies should be appropriately vaccinated and not socialized in locations such as dog parks, pet stores, and other locations frequented by dogs of unknown vaccination and/or disease status. For the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior’s position statement on Puppy Socialization visit the website avsabonline.org.

How would you put a vet’s mind at ease when it comes to early socialization?

Again, according to the late Dr. RK Anderson, a pioneer in Veterinary Behavior, more dogs die of behavior problems than die of infectious disease. This means that veterinarians are losing more patients to behavior problems than parvovirus. Our vaccines for infectious diseases now are much better than they were 20 years ago when the recommendation was to “not let the puppy touch the ground outside of your house until fully vaccinated.” My recently published study (Stepita ME, et al. Frequency of CPV in Puppies that Attended Puppy Socialization Classes. JAAHA, 49:95-100) found that vaccinated puppies attending socialization classes were at no greater risk of canine parvovirus infection than vaccinated puppies that did not attend those classes. Veterinarians should also refer to the position statement discussed in the answer to the previous question.

Anything else you’d like to share relating to early socialization?

Remember that it is important to go at the individual puppy’s pace; if they are hiding under the chair at puppy class, then that situation is too much for the puppy at that time. The quality of socialization is just as important as the quantity. If dog owners have concerns or questions I urge them to contact their veterinarian or a veterinary behaviorist (dacvb.org). In my behavior practice, I have seen many patients whose behavior problems may have been prevented or reduced by appropriate socialization.

 

Many toy poodle breeders keep their puppies to that age, and I think it is a great age, because the basic personality traits are already formed and you know for sure what you are getting! I have gotten most of my toy poodles at this age (13 weeks was the earliest), and they were housebroken in a day or two, and so eager to learn new things and explore the world! Plus, they have had most of their shots, so you do not have to worry about taking them around other dogs!
If you like this puppy, do not hesitate!


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I like getting them at 8 weeks. House training is so much easier then. They are more work, but it's okay. I do think getting a puppy at 16 weeks is okay, too. I got my whippet at 4 months old and it was fine, but he was well socialized by the breeder because she had been planning on keeping him. They are still babies at 4 months. I would find out what kind of socialization the puppy has had, but other than that it isn't a problem.

 

The key is a good breeder - if they have done a good job taking them through the development, you have no worries - and since it is standard for a reputable toy poodle breeder to keep their puppies until 12-16 weeks, depending upon how small they are, they probably are just fine at seeing their puppies successfully through those stages!
Personally, having had so much success with the Tpoos that I have gotten at this age, I would refuse to take one any younger!


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To poodlebeguiled. Thank you for posting these articles. It helped me to see why we had so much trouble socializing the red puppy we had last spring and summer, The Shiloh puppy. The red puppy we have now, Jillian ( Jilly Boo) , is a totally different temperament. We can't stop grinning, and we won't stop socializing her, even with just her first set of shots.
I always read your comments. And really appreciate your experienced and knowledgeable input. I wish I had someone like you near me. I so want to do this right with this adorable new puppy. We have had spoos since 1985, and the first red puppy really threw me for a loop.
There are no puppy classes going on between Thanksgiving and the Christmas and New years seasons. So I hope
Mrs Shannon will find a good way to socialize this 16 week old puppy. And I agree with all the advice given so far. Also, according to Wendy Volhard herself, it is never too late to do parts of her aptitude test that is usually done at 49 days old. It is a very useful tool for a 16 wk old pup or an adult you are rescuing. This could give her some more information into what this puppy's nature is at this point in its development.

 

I'm a firm believer of practice makes perfect. So it's never too late to get them socialized but first you need to bond with your dog, that must come first before socialization.

I'd threw a puppy warming up party if I were you. Have fun!

 

I disagree with all due respect that it's never too late to socialize for the very reasons explained in those articles. All animals have a critical period which is finite. Socialization should continue forever, maybe not as intensely though. So, in that way, yeah, it's never too late to keep adding to the experiences that have a positive association.

With a starved early socialization period, improvements can be made along the way and some breeds and individuals vary. But basically, if you've ever seen an adult dog that had an impoverished early critical socialization period (birth to 12 - 16 weeks) it is extremely difficult to make much headway.

That said, if the breeder socialized the puppy until you get him at 16 weeks, great. But a lot of breeders are very busy, have lots of dogs and they may do the bare minimum. They may go to the vet's, see kids and adults, see a few different places. But there is so much more to be covered. Poodles are an easier breed to socialize than say a Doberman. So, I'm sure there's a tad more leeway there.

Personally, I prefer to get a puppy at 8-10 weeks so I can have time to introduce him to all the things I think, in my lifestyle we'll come across, at least most of those things or representations of those things. But that's just me.

They are indeed a lot of work but this way I know for a fact where the dog has been, make sure they're all positive experiences etc. A Poodles temperament, I can see makes for an easier time in that regard, but socialization should never stop. But those first 16 weeks or so are very important to me and I like to know just what exactly my puppies are experiencing. I have pretty specific requirements. If you can see that the puppy is obviously well socialized, if you can see him around lots of different aged people, different environments, various dogs, well, the list is large, that would be good.

Anyhow, just my .02 Good luck.

 

When it comes to Toy Poodle Puppies, who traditionally leave the breeder at 12-16 weeks, that part of the socialization is taken care of for you, so what you see is what you get (and I'd rather know what I was getting then wait to find out after I have the dog)! After that the owner part of the socialization, of which there is still plenty more to do begins.

PB, it sounds like you are making an assumption that all poodle breeders are keeping their puppies in a cardboard box in a closet during the "critical socialization period", and if we don't snatch them at 8 weeks and do the job it won't be done, but NOT SO - it least not with a GOOD Breeder - they know how to raise a puppy, when and what kind of things to expose it to and you will know exactly what you are getting.

Anyhow, it's a moot point, because the majority of responsible tpoo won't let their puppies go before 12-16 weeks, so the OP is not likely to have the opportunity to do it themselves as you suggest anyhow.

 

I didn't make any assumptions that good breeders don't socialize their puppies. I don't know where I gave the impression I thought they kept them in a box. I know they do raise them right from day one if they're good. I have bought several purebred dogs from reputable breeders so I am not unfamiliar with how it's done. I was just explaining that I personally.... like to get them earlier than 16 weeks so I can take them where I want to take them, to make sure I cover specific things that they are exposed to that are especially important to me before that window closes. There's nothing wrong with taking a puppy of 8 weeks away from it's litter mates or mother as long as it's thriving well and has learned all it needs to from them, which obviously mine did.

A good temperament is a must but so is ample socialization. And it could happen that a breeder doesn't have the time to take each of his puppies to Home Depot, on a walk through the woods, to a beach, in fields, on gravel, to see children from newborn to 2 yrs old, from 2 to 6 yrs, to 7 to teenage, to adult men with beards, without, with canes, with walkers, with umbrellas, on elevators, past noisy construction, by trains, to see livestock, friendly healthy adult dogs, friendly puppies, people in weird costumes, people carrying lawn chairs, big garbage bags, people in big hats. A breeder likely has a few dogs and several puppies at times and it's a lot to do. Like I said, toy Poodles may not need as heavy duty socialization but dogs like Dobermans, GSDs and a lot of other breeds definitely need a lot. So it's personal preference. I like to get them started early on the things that are tailored to my life style. I already know they have good temperaments. That I can determine when they're 8 weeks old. I've been involved with dogs for a long, long time.

I spoke with several very reputable breeders of toys and the average let them go at 10 weeks, give or take. I didn't find one that insisted on keeping them till 16 weeks. Same when I got my Chihuahuas. They're really tiny. My breeder is highly regarded by many and he let me take his at 8 weeks because they were robust and healthy, well adjusted and came from very lovely parents. Maybe too, on account of his trusting me to be the careful person I am with puppies. So, if you're thinking my breeder sucks because he gave them to me at 8 weeks, well, that's pretty unbelievable.

And as far as keeping them under lock and key until they're 16 weeks or until they've had all their vaccines, not for me. I wait until they've had 2 sets. It's more risky to under socialize a pup than getting a disease. That's been addressed, studied and documented. Reasonable precautions...yes. I don't take them where a lot of unknown dogs are....no parks, pet stores, rest stops (I never take any dogs to rest stops) But everywhere else I can think of, they go and see.

So anyone can do anything they like. I simply was giving my opinion.

 

I think most puppies are pretty much confined to their house and yard till about that age because of vaccinations anyway, although there are a lot of ways to expose a pup to different things at home too of course. If you believe the pup is not already reactive and everything seems right, go for it. :thumbup:

 

PB, the fact is that most reputable tpoo breeders keep them until12-16 weeks.
If you established a relationship with your breeder where he was comfortable with you taking them early, and you were comfortable with taking that risk, that's fine, but in general, a Tpoo breeder who usually lets their puppies go at 8 weeks would indeed be a major red flag.

 

But it is true that the only case where a breeder might INSIST upon keeping them until 16 weeks is if they are extra tiny, but sometimes breeders who are really firm about making the correct match have them even longer - I've known several people, including my sister in-law who got ones from my breeder that were 6-7 months old, and they were wonderful, well-adjusted dogs.

 

I got my Molly at 16 weeks and because she was raised/socialized in a family with lots of love, people/kids/noise, etc., she came to live with me with practically no behavioral issues at all! She is probably one of the sweetest, most laid back puppies I have ever owned.
Early socialization IS important, so look at the breeders environment that was provided for the pup and if possible meet at least the Dam, and see what her personality is like too!
Then continue to socialize your new pup to everything also! Safely of course!