[PhoebeDuck]

Not to derail the thread... I'm reading that and I'm thinking... This is what I get to look forward to.

Vinnie has discovered his Big Boy voice recently and is using it every chance he can. 🙄

 

[TerraFirma]

Haven’t read all the responses, but I’m immediately struck that we’re focusing on symptoms. My current pup was wildly reactive from 8-12 months of age. By starting at ground zero with training (for us it was positive reinforcement games, relaxation protocol, and not exposing him to any stimuli/thinking about getting ahead of the behaviors), we made massive progress. I would also consult a veterinary behaviorist who could advise on meds while you train. E-collars on psychologically stable dogs out working in a field, I have less concern with, but on an already reactive, emotional dog….that might backfire/mask or suppress the symptoms and erupt at a later date if the collar is removed. The goal really should be addressing the root causes.

And, apologies for overstepping, as you work with your dogs, please feel very comfortable pausing on dog #3 until you know both resident dogs are solid, reliable, and stable with no aversive in sight. Three dogs is much more of a challenge than 2.

EDIT: if Limerick is so stimulated that he doesn’t respond to you, please start at ground zero with him in a zero stimuli environment. Gradually add in minute distractions. The world sounds like it’s just too much for him and he’s not looking to you as a safe guide in life. His lil brain is on fire. ☹ ❤❤❤ it’s entirely something you can help manage! I’m in awe of my boy’s progress and am excited about his future. Lastly, consider addressing these root causes too bc the stress he’s under predisposes him to illness as he matures. A calmer, happy dog is a healthier dog.

I’d say good luck, but instead I’ll say — enjoy the journey of bringing Limerick peace and building the deepest connection you’ve ever had with a dog!

 

[reraven123]

I agree with the getting ahead of behaviors. Instead of waiting until he fixates on something and loses it, try to anticipate what's about to happen and get his attention firmly on you before he loses it. If you just can't keep his attention, move away from the distraction until he can. I still don't like the e-collar for this, because again you are ramping up instead of calming down, and also you run the risk that he will associate seeing other dogs/people/whatever with getting shocked and blame it on them instead of his own behavior, which could lead to even bigger problems.

 

[TK9NY]

We're a ways off from deciding on using an e-collar or not: and there have been many great points made that suggest it isn't a great idea with him for this. And a lot of alternate suggestions. Which is why i love this forum!

When we get back from vacation i have a sit down with the trainer that we've been using, to discuss everything and my options. If we can do a few one on one sessions then i would like to do that, to start, and then work him into a group class or their reactivity workshop depending on his progress.

We're also a ways off from dog # 3. I always said that a third would come with time, after i've worked with the boys. You know, bar emergencies (like when we took Adam to prevent him from going to shelter.) I would love to have a sibling of Limericks, but his mom's last litter will be due to go home in late fall and that is not enough time to work with him on this. I also can't afford it.

There's no time frame on anything, really. Thankfully, Dublin is a stable influence. He gets riled but not to the same extent, and he's easy to redirect. He's also very food motivated. So when Limerick is acting like a fool, at least Dublin is just standing there (or sitting) and going "wtf bro, chill out".

Over vacation, i'll be looking into all the links and suggestions given in both threads. I'll have plenty of time to do so, as we don't have many plans other than "beach". The dogs will be staying at a local kennel, which used to belong to the vet and is still affiliated but is now independently operated. I wish they could come, but that was veto'ed by my parents (and Limerick's propensity for carsickness).

 

[94Magna_Tom]

I'm pretty new at dogs, so I don't have much experience. One opportunity I think you can exploit is his reactivity in the house. You could get someone (or several someones) to help you train him by making outdoor noises, knocking on the door, walking past the window, or whatever triggers him. The second before he becomes reactive, click and treat. I think you'll need to succeed at home before you will be able to succeed when out and about. Again, not much experience here so I could be wrong.

 

[Kukla the Tpoo]

My mpoo was extremely leash reactive. Initially, a dog could be barely visible off in the distance and he would start to react. Once he was reacting he would not respond to cues and seemed to lose any interest in treats. I worked for a while with a private trainer and I learned to carefully read his body language. The second I observed the slightest stiffening in his posture, I changed direction and put a yummy treat right up to his nose. That kept his arousal state low enough for him to eat the treat. It took a long time, but gradually he was able to get closer to the stimulus before his body would start to stiffen.

Shortly after I had adopted him he developed a chronic GI issue. It took many months to diagnose the problem and then many more to stabilize him. The first two years I had him I was mainly focused on getting him healthy and was not addressing his leash reactivity at all. Unfortunately, because of the delay, the reactivity became ingrained and was that much harder to deal with. I wouldn't say he ever became a dog who could calmly pass by another leashed dog on a sidewalk. But he did improve and those embarrassing barking/lounging behaviors became far less frequent. My approach was to cross over to the opposite side of the street whenever possible. If I was unable to cross the street, then I would go to the very inner edge of the sidewalk (or even a little bit into someone's driveway) and ask my dog to sit facing the sidewalk. I would stand in front of him to block his view and I would feed him treats nonstop while the other dog walked by.

While I was living in MA I had the good fortune of taking my mpoo to reactive dog classes taught by Emma Parsons, the author of "Click To Calm". My mpoo made more progress in these classes than he had in the previous years when I was working with him by myself. The highly controlled environment was invaluable. What is difficult in the "real world" is that you are faced with the unexpected, and at times it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to keep your dog under threshold.

Kukla has some reactivity issues, although they are far less severe than those of my mpoo. However, if another dog is approaching, I still must cross the street to keep him under threshold. I know I am not working with him as much as I should. I would like to find a good place where I can have him lie on his mat and see dogs at a distance, then gradually reduce the distance as he gets better. I often will sit with him on our driveway, but most of the time nobody with a dog walks by.

I don't really have any advice for you that hasn't already been mentioned, but having had a highly reactive dog, I wanted to let you know that I empathize with your situation with Limerick. I think it's great that you are addressing his issues and seeking assistance from a trainer.

Lastly, those are fabulous photos of your beautiful boys!

 

[PowersPup]

First, I LOVE your photos. Topper,my nearly 3-year-old blue mini, started demand barking at my husband as soon as we sat down for dinner or to watch TV. I tried offering to play with him myself when I finished eating, but he wanted dad. We had him "relax" on his mat while we were eating, but having dad walk around afterwards put him over his threshold. I got a bark collar from Stop Woofer that I can set to beep of just vibrate. The first time we tried it, Topper stopped after one or two barks. As soon as he stopped barking, we praised him and offered treats. He soon learned that the collar was a good thing and once even brought it to me to put it on him! I think it works because the demand barking is much more manageable. Dad has been away for a few days and guess what? No demand barking at all! To summarize, I think it just interrupted the barking and with praise and rewards, Topper soon learned to make better choices.

 

[moki.elwood]

I've used both bark collars and e-collars, but I've only used an e-collar on my standard. My recommendation is that an e-collar would be all you need. E-collars are a great tool for balanced training. When my standard is wearing hers, it gives her confidence, strangely enough.

I use Dogtra brand. I use the 200C model for my standard. I've also used the 1900S for a Doberman. The 1900S is more powerful than the 200C. The 200C is probably all that a standard would need since they are more sensitive dogs. I've tested both of these on myself, and I can't even feel the sensation until 6 and it just feels like a tap. Both of these collars have a vibrate button, a nick, and a continuous button. A tip: all dogs I've worked with on Dogtra e-collars dislike the vibrate mode. So I use the vibrate mode to correct and the static mode to guide.

I've experienced nothing but success with using an e-collar. I've used it for correcting bad manners, recall, and general training guidance.

Another tool you might like is the gentle leader. It's like a horse halter, but for dogs. It helps for dogs that like to pull or have scattered attention when walking on leash.

 

[moki.elwood]

I'm keeping all suggestions in mind. Doing a lot of research. Thanks for all the ideas, so far! I'm open to any and all thoughts. And there have been some good ones, as well as some good points made. I love posting on here, everyone is incredibly helpful!

Right now is research phase. When i get back from vacation will be the working phase, lol. Currently, Lim is getting yard time for exercise - equal parts running around and some simple training exercises. Walks are short and infrequent, i give him six foot leash to sniff and explore instead of keeping it structured. The only "rule" i have is he can't pull, and he does great at that.

Even when he's riled, he doesn't so much pull/lunge as he does bark and hop in place.

We do some indoor fun training too. Sniff games for treats. He loves snuffle mat, but recently learned that he can pick it up and shake it to get the treats faster. And we sit on the front porch a couple times a day, just watching. He gets full range of the porch on leash and i reward calm. He's slowly starting to relax for that.

Right now he's asleep under the big window, on the cool air vent of course, after we just ran around the yard.

Another set of play photos:
View attachment 511773 View attachment 511774

I think the e-collar will help you out, but along with the e-collar, I have some other suggestions that could help. First, it sounds like Lim is still maturing and in the bratty teenage stage. Standards are very sensitive dogs...sensitive at picking up noises and emotions. It sounds like Lim is highly tuned into his senses.

I would start by restricting their freedom until they earn the freedom. (This should also ease anxiety since it will give them a more direct path and decrease sensory overload.) When walking on leash, I would make Lim walk at heel. Walking with 6 feet of freedom to sniff and explore is a freedom he hasn't earned yet. I would teach him to walk at heel first. This will also help with his reactivity because you'll have better control, you'll be able to correct his behavior faster, and he'll have to be more focused on you rather than his attention being scattered about. I would also restrict freedom inside the house too, such as teaching a 'place' command. A place where they have to go lay until they are allowed to get up. Another good one is teaching a 'look' command and rewarding your dogs when they look at you. Practicing commands like 'leave it' and 'stay' will also help with impulse control. Little things like this make huge differences in a dog's behavior.

 

[moki.elwood]

cowpony - Every dog i've owned has taught me something new. I look forward to the challenges of working with dogs with different needs. And yeah, i do use what i learn on dogs in my shop and to help educate owners. I like to know how to use ALL tools and about ALL methods as i generally get a variety of people who use so many different methods/tools.

Including dogs trained on e-collars, prong collars, etc etc. I have had people ask for help with certain behaviors, and have recommended my trainer to others with success. I will look into those links, though! Thanks!

reraven - agreed, most tools are not meant to take the place of training. They are aids to HELP training. In Limerick's case, he knows the commands but his attention is more on the reactivity than me or the commands. So i was thinking it might be of use in the sense of NOT correcting him but as a means or re-gaining his focus or "snapping" him out of it.

When i trained Kiley on it years ago, the goal wasn't to correct her but to provide a stimulation that would make her go "hey, whoa, time out, i'm supposed to be listening". She KNEW the commands leave it and come already. And that's how we used it with her. The lightest setting would make her pause, break her from her focus on the small animal she wanted to chase, and i would follow it up with a command (leave it, come, etc) and then heavy reward her for listening. We kept her on leash, to make sure we could follow through, until she was reliable and understood what we were doing.

I hope that makes sense!

Pearl - YES!! I agree! Some dogs are not suited for e-collar work. Or corrections at all. I would NEVER use one on Dublin, for example, because he is what many would consider "soft". Even the beeping or vibrating feature on the newer collars would probably make him nervous. My goal is not to scare them. So, he is 90% positive only, lol. A sharp "uh uh" is enough "correction" for him!

Limerick is very different, though, and is hardly phased by ANYTHING. Which is why e-collars and bark collars have been mentioned (and why i'm researching.) He is already walked on a prong collar, to give me a little bit more control. When he gets riled up he doesn't even notice leash corrections so i don't even bother. He does respond to very mild leash pressure when he is NOT riled.

Rose - His response varies by trigger.

In house, he will go from totally focused on me (IE say i have egg for breakfast, he will sit in front of me and wait for me to share) to barking like a fool and i won't even know what caused it. Noise outside?!? Zero to 100 in like a second or two. Dublin won't even react to whatever Limerick heard. If someone walks by the door when it's open and the boys see that person, Dublin will watch with interest but not bark and Limerick will go from doing whatever he was doing to crashing into the door and barking like a fool.

Once he is like that, i can pull him away and he will sit when i say sit, but even if i stand in front of him he will continue to bark until the trigger is gone. He generally won't "leave it" on command, though he knows the command. He will remain focused on that trigger until it is well out of sight.

Out of house, he is always super aware and looking around. He will pinpoint on something all the way down the road. Outside, when he first notices something, there is a more noticeable gear shift. I can tell when he's spotted something and i can see him starting to get amped up if i watch carefully. When this happens i will look for it, acknowledge it, then try to redirect him. If we're far enough away he will remain focused on it but QUIET. He will follow me off to the side, or in the opposite direction, and will engage with me to a degree but will remain focused on the trigger until he can't see it again.

He starts barking at it when we're closer to it. I would say.... four or five houses away he starts to get loud about it and stops responding to me. If i turn him around and walk away, he will continually look back. Or try to walk backwards. When the trigger is about two houses away he gets absolutely ridiculous.

BUT if they approach us and we're in much closer contact, he shuts up other than the occasional bark or woof. IE crowds. Or the brave should who is like "OoOo Poodle can i say hi". If i can reach out and touch the person (or dog) then Limerick goes quiet and actually watches DUBLIN for cues. Which is funny, because Dublin will quietly but happily go right up to strangers for pets. Then Limerick is all up there too.

Then he barks as we walk away. So. He's an interesting one. If i can get my friend out here again i'll have her record us so everyone can see more of what i'm talking about lol.

You've left some helpful information about Lim, thanks for that. Just for clarification on responding to this post, I'm an e-collar user, but I don't think an e-collar will help much once Lim has reached his peak in reacting as you describe here. Once a dog is in that highly reactive state, their brain is not in learn mode.

The e-collar is a good tool for foundation training which will automatically solve the issues you described in this post.

I wouldn't close yourself off to using an e-collar on Dublin. The e-collar has low static settings that are friendly that might help Dublin. Some of these static sensations, we can't even feel as humans. The ones we can feel just feel like you're barely touching yourself with your finger. The e-collar can be way less invasive than a regular collar or even us using a harsher tone of voice.

 

[PeggyTheParti]

Sniffing and exploring calms the nervous system. Please do not deny a reactive dog these natural self-soothing behaviours. Just find a way to accommodate them safely.

Hope you’re having a wonderful vacation, @TK9NY

 

[130441]

I have successfully trained my girl to heel and recall with great reliability, walk off leash in stores like Walmart, stay with me and provide balance in busy outdoor farmer’s markets and on all kinds of terrain.
it was not my tools that trained her—it was clear, consistent training. I enrolled in aShield K9 off leash obedience class offered on-line and after the prong collar, used an ECollar Technologies Educator with finger trainer.
Mr Haz Othman puts emphasis on gradual gentle introduction to the tools and also rewarding and praising the dog so they enjoy the process.
Only after the dog clearly demonstrates they understand how to do the wanted behavior are the levels increased gradually to a level of consequences for the dog choosing not to obey. This teaches them that even if they want to do something other than what the handler wants, there are some things they MUST do—no matter how interesting something smells, or how enticing that squirrel or feral cat may be.
The big payoff for the dog is FREEDOM! My dog walks, runs, sniffs and investigates off leash on two walks a day. If I see a car I say “Come!” and she returns to me until it passes, sitting at heel. We have no sidewalks, so we walk in the street in our neighborhood. A half mile walk for me is likely at least double that for her, what with running in the grass
Snooping for scents and practicing long recalls and heeling. I seldom have to do any corrections now.

Contrary to what some people say happens, she is not suppressed or unhappy at all. She is more frisky, joyous and playful that ever—reveling in her freedom.
She stands obediently for her e collar to be put on and her personality has not changed because she got balanced training.
Correctly used, with thoughtful and consistent training, tools like the e collar make for a reliable and happy dog.

 

[moki.elwood]

I have successfully trained my girl to heel and recall with great reliability, walk off leash in stores like Walmart, stay with me and provide balance in busy outdoor farmer’s markets and on all kinds of terrain.
it was not my tools that trained her—it was clear, consistent training. I enrolled in aShield K9 off leash obedience class offered on-line and after the prong collar, used an ECollar Technologies Educator with finger trainer.
Mr Haz Othman puts emphasis on gradual gentle introduction to the tools and also rewarding and praising the dog so they enjoy the process.
Only after the dog clearly demonstrates they understand how to do the wanted behavior are the levels increased gradually to a level of consequences for the dog choosing not to obey. This teaches them that even if they want to do something other than what the handler wants, there are some things they MUST do—no matter how interesting something smells, or how enticing that squirrel or feral cat may be.
The big payoff for the dog is FREEDOM! My dog walks, runs, sniffs and investigates off leash on two walks a day. If I see a car I say “Come!” and she returns to me until it passes, sitting at heel. We have no sidewalks, so we walk in the street in our neighborhood. A half mile walk for me is likely at least double that for her, what with running in the grass
Snooping for scents and practicing long recalls and heeling. I seldom have to do any corrections now.

Contrary to what some people say happens, she is not suppressed or unhappy at all. She is more frisky, joyous and playful that ever—reveling in her freedom.
She stands obediently for her e collar to be put on and her personality has not changed because she got balanced training.
Correctly used, with thoughtful and consistent training, tools like the e collar make for a reliable and happy dog.

This is great! You described the e-collar way better than me. But this process is exactly how it's been for me too. I can also attest that my standard (and all dogs I've used an e-colllar on) are happier dogs with more freedoms with e-collar training plus they look forward to wearing the e-collar because it means they get to go somewhere.

 

[cowpony]

Now that Haz from K9 Shield has been mentioned, I’m also going to bring up another trainer, Michael Ellis, who has a lot of videos at Leerburg. In particular, I would like to note that, even though both trainers are quite willing to use aversives up to and including shock collars, and both trainers have offered instruction on using these devices… both trainers have also made videos cautioning about misuse of these devices.





Ellis makes some important points about problematic behavior often being an indication of fear, and that punishing a dog for being fearful reinforces the fear and bad behavior. He also makes a point to differentiate between putting pressure on a dog to get it past uncertainty vs putting pressure on a dog in a way that cements the fear.

Haz at K9 Shield discusses the increase in dogs with e-collar and prong collar related issues being brought to him to be fixed.

I think it is difficult, and probably impossible really, to teach timing and observation skills via static descriptions on a site such as PoodleForum. Acquiring this skill goes much faster and more smoothly under the guidance of a good trainer. As Haz says in his video at around the 2:30 point: If you don’t know what you are doing, if you don’t know how to read a dog, if you don’t know when to put the pressure on, when to put it off, what kind of pressure to use and how to use it and when to use it, you can cause a lot of issues at the very least unnecessary stress to the dog. I’m going to shut this discussion down now. The internet is not where you need to be if you have a deteriorating training situation that you think needs to be solved via a shock collar. Reach out to a trainer.