Nicely said! I think that propaganda also creates animosity between breeders and rescues, which is a shame. The potential for working together gets lost. It also polarizes the issue, which in turn allows the fanatics free reign.

I support both rescue and good breeding practices. I cannot support fanatical rescue or profit driven puppy/ show mills. I get so annoyed with ignorant comments by rescuers, and equally as annoyed by breeders that denigrate rescue. But the propaganda fuels it.

I really had it one day when a rescue person started in about breeders, and I did my usual- trying to educate in a calm manner, presenting a different viewpoint...but she just escalated with the anti- breeder rant.

What can I say, she just tripped my triggers, and I let her know in no uncertain terms that she was now insulting people very close to me- good friends, family, my mother, my grandfather, and my own daughter. She shut up at that point, I think I shocked her. I'm not usually an argumentative person, but we all have our breaking points. I don't know if I got through to her, but at that point I just wanted her to shut up, which she did, and gave me a wide berth for a while!

 

I support both rescue and good breeding practices. I cannot support fanatical rescue or profit driven puppy/ show mills. I get so annoyed with ignorant comments by rescuers, and equally as annoyed by breeders that denigrate rescue. But the propaganda fuels it

These are my feelings too! Unfortunately, here in my city 'Dog Flippers' disguised as 'Rescuers' run rampant complete with 501 tax exempt status! What ends up happening is all the pretty, little, cute, or purebred dogs get pulled from the pound, sold for hundreds of dollars(even the mutts if they are cute and little and fluffy) while all the old or not-so-pretty ones who really need to be rescued are left to be destroyed. It has gotten hard to know who is legitimate anymore unless they are a well advertised rescue and then you will end up paying $500.00 for a mutt (more for a purebred) that you could've picked up at our shelter already spayed/neutered, shots,licensed and microchipped for $69.00!!!!!
And don't even get me started on PETA!!!!!!! UGH!!!!!:faint:

 

That is a VERY good article. I hope it gets plastered all over FB. (I'm not a member and don't know quite how it works but it needs to really get out there big time) I'm so sick of people I come across who have this holier than thou attitude when they look at my purebred Poodles (or other purebred dogs in the recent past) and proclaim as they raise their noses heavenward that they got their dog from a shelter or rescued their dog. Often, it is said with an air of superiority. Not everyone is like that who adopts a dog...of course not. And it IS commendable to adopt a dog in need. I feel so badly for all those homeless, sad dogs that other people have caused to be this way. But this mind set that ALL breeders need to be stopped is so short sighted and stupid. (except for puppy mills and lousy byb,)Like the article said, dogs would go extinct if they were all neutered (as shelter dogs are) and all breeders were stopped, as well, people who purchase purebred dogs are evil and not being responsible for other peoples' mess is just infuriating!

Thanks for posting both those articles, though the Peta one is most upsetting. But it needs to get out there. More people need to know the truth about Peta.

 

Finally people are listening. My SIL posted a pro PETA fb post and he is the biggest animal lover in his heart. I will be happy to promote this on my fb page.

pr

 

Wonderful article Arreau. Thanks for sharing.

 

I agree, some of the rescue fees are really high, and I also question why so high? The organization I work with charges 195 for a dog over two and 295 for a dog under two. I think that is reasonable. Because I've written grants for them, I've seen the books- nobody's making any money, and they usually run just slightly in the red. They're a pretty good rescue. It seems Poodle Rescue of Houston and Carolina Poodle Rescue do good work and are reputable, and they also charge in that same range. It's more $ than a shelter, but they don't get funding like the municipal animal shelters, and have to pay fees to pull dogs from shelters.

Rescue is unregulated, and there are abuses. There is a rescue around here who was exposed in the media recently for having almost a 200,000 dollar surplus. It's nice to have some padding, for vet emergencies, but 200,000 is outrageous.
Tarnishes the good work other rescues do.

The tax returns from any 501c are public access, but there certainly can be dealings under the table that are not reported.

TP- there is a fairly new program through The Mayor's Alliance where they will pay the transport for an animal to go to rescue out of NYACC, because the kill rate was so high in the city shelters. I was considering doing that a few years ago. Maybe the transport program has changed the climate down there- I know there is at least one rescue up here that pulls from NYACC

 

Well that is good news, but where are the rescues that are going to take the four year old, resource guarding pit bull, or the 16 year old Pekinese covered in tumors, blind, and with rotting teeth?
It annoys me to no end that there is a rescue nearby in Jersey that transports (often flying in a private plane) puppies and young healthy dogs from a shelter down south while so many, no more than an hours drive from them die here.
Are all of those puppies and young healthy dogs really going going to be PTS if they are not flown to another State? I guess if it is a choice between rescuing a six year old Pit Bull, and a chihuahua puppy, the chi has a better chance of having a successful adoption. But I am just not sure, it kind of stinks of flipping. Can you imagine how many dogs could be rescued locally for the cost of one flight in a private plane?

 

Unfortunately I used to be a rescue snob. I had never heard of or met a responsible breeder at that time. In my defense I had helped euthanize a couple thousand animals.

A new shelter director set me straight and I slowly changed my mind and now I have a pure purebred poodle from a responsible breeder.

I have never been a fan of Peta. Thank you for the articles.

 

Well, I have heard that in the Mass. Area that rescues go to Puerta Rico and get strays and then adopt them out. I'd rather it come from the South than another "country."

 

TP- you raise some very good points . The shelters up here are full of pit bulls, most of who will never find a home, while rescues "import" dogs from high kill shelters. On the surface it doesn't seem to make sense. But the bottom line is most people want to adopt a young healthy dog, and they're not going to take the old sick dog or the pit bull.

Good rescues will take " project dogs" though, for humane reasons. The rescue I work with will take some pit bulls from area shelters, but it's kind of like taking one for the team- they tie up a foster home for months, or even years, and are often returned. If that foster home wasn't tied up, 8-10 more adoptable dogs could have been fostered by that person and adopted. That's 8-10 lives saved, versus one. Harsh reality.

I've fostered a lot of young, easy dogs, but also fostered a twelve year old blind dog, a dog with a collapsing trachea, and a 4 month old puppy that was so abused she didn't come out from behind my couch for two months except when hubby wasn't home ...to name a few "projects." They all eventually found good homes, but they used a lot of resources, and non profits have to balance that type of dog with easy, adoptable dogs to survive. Makes it sound like business I know, but if rescues don't run with some business sense, they fold. Importing puppies and young dogs plump the bank account, and provide funds for the twelve year old blind dog and the pit bull.

To answer your question of whether those cute, young dogs would really be put to sleep if they weren't "imported"- the answer is a resounding YES- by the thousands. I've backed off from rescue right now, but I used to see the lists every week from the shelters, and the amount of dogs that would have been adopted here in a heartbeat that are put to sleep in high kill sheltes would blow your mind. My Misty only survived because the rescue squeezed her in as an "add-on" because she was small and could fit in the plane, and I would foster. She needed housebreaking, which I did, but otherwise is wonderful- well socialized, friendly, sweet, and a very pretty little dog.....but was literally minutes from being put to sleep in NC. Many high kill shelters euthanize pregnant dogs and litters of puppies the minute they come in the door because they don't have the resources to care for them. Importing them to a rescue saves them.

In NYC- dogs weren't being adopted locally, that's why there was an initiative to get them out to rescues. In 2003, the kill rate in NYC shelters was 69% - the last I read it's now done to 20%. That's a huge difference. I pasted a couple links, one from the NYT and one from the Mayor's Alliance.

Lots of really good progress in NYC. But a lot of unadoptable dogs are stuck in the shelter, and that's very sad. I don't know the answer for that, or how to fix it, other than educating about responsible pet ownership.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...percentage-of-animals-put-to-death-in-shelters-reaches-low/comment-page-2/?_r=0

http://animalalliancenyc.org

 

Well if you notice the article that you posted is from 2010, and if you read the comments below it, that is pretty much my understanding of what is still going on at the shelters.
And I guess it is good that those small puppies are being brought here where they are wanted - they should bring more! If puppies like that were available here, I probably would not have a poodle - for me, getting a rescue is an impossibility!

 

I posted the 2010 article because it has the history of why the changes were made. The other link is the website for the Mayor's Alliance, which is up to date and has info about the transport program, and that the kill rate is now down to 20%, but it didn't have the history so I included both for anyone who was interested. I apologize if that was confusing.

I've worked a lot with rescue, but the whole point of this thread was that buying a puppy from a reputable breeder does not mean a dog dies in a shelter, and I believe that is absolutely true and I hate the propaganda that perpetuates that idea. I don't mean to take the conversation away from that- I was just trying to clarify some points about rescues that may not be well known.

My next dog will probably be a purebred poodle from a breeder. Partly because I've never gotten a dog from a reputable breeder and partly because it sometimes makes me very sad when I think of the lost potential in some rescue dogs. Lily has really hit me that way. It took so long to rehabilitate her, and we will probably always struggle with reactivity to a certain extent. She is the smartest dog I have ever owned and is now able (at age 5) to progress in agility, and has this incredible personality that I am head over heels in love with- but it took 2 years for that personality to fully come out. I often wish that I knew her as a puppy and could have spared her all the crap and just given her wonderfulness from the start. Don't get me wrong, I do derive a lot of fulfillment out of saving a dog, but I'm ready now for something different- a dog that knows no pain. And that's the point of this- that there is nothing wrong with that!

 

Yes, I agree - I often say that if everyone took the care and consideration into finding their ideal canine match, and the time, dedication, and commitment to raising it as people like those in this forum do, all shelters and rescues would be shut down, there would be no need. Every person who devotedly loves and cares for their dog from cradle to grave, no matter where they got them, is doing something about the shelter problem.

 

I wholeheartedly agree!!

If I get another dog in my life it will be a pure bred from a reputable breeder!! within the last 10 months I have spent over 5k on Luce for BOTH hips!!!! Do accidents happen? YES, but the first one was inherited shallow hip socket.

A lot of people I have met since this started with her last spring have told me they would have put her down and not spend that kind of money on a dog!! My response has and always will be "when I got her she became my responsibility. That includes health care". Did I expect this? NO. She brings so much joy to my life I would do it again for her. Hopefully I am a little wiser now so I will be a bit more diligent next time. Even if I spent 2k on a puppy it still would have been cheaper in the long run! Of course the 5g doesn't include the emotional drain I endured during the 3 surgeries and recovery time.

I am also a big fan of Animal Planet and have seen programs about people who take dogs from the south and transport them north to find homes. These people appear to be very genuine, caring and happy to do this. I have found living in Texas a lot of people do not have values of pet ownership as those do in the north east. Of course a good Texan friend of mine was very insulted about that, then I had to say generally speaking.

You could go on craigs list in my area and see all sorts of pets, I look on craigs list in NY around Long Island (where I'm from) and you do not see the quantity of pets people are looking to rehome. It seems pets are a bit more disposable down here then they are up there.

Just my 25 cents worth.

 

I wholeheartedly agree!!



If I get another dog in my life it will be a pure bred from a reputable breeder!! within the last 10 months I have spent over 5k on Luce for BOTH hips!!!! Do accidents happen? YES, but the first one was inherited shallow hip socket.



A lot of people I have met since this started with her last spring have told me they would have put her down and not spend that kind of money on a dog!! My response has and always will be "when I got her she became my responsibility. That includes health care". Did I expect this? NO. She brings so much joy to my life I would do it again for her. Hopefully I am a little wiser now so I will be a bit more diligent next time. Even if I spent 2k on a puppy it still would have been cheaper in the long run! Of course the 5g doesn't include the emotional drain I endured during the 3 surgeries and recovery time.



I am also a big fan of Animal Planet and have seen programs about people who take dogs from the south and transport them north to find homes. These people appear to be very genuine, caring and happy to do this. I have found living in Texas a lot of people do not have values of pet ownership as those do in the north east. Of course a good Texan friend of mine was very insulted about that, then I had to say generally speaking.



You could go on craigs list in my area and see all sorts of pets, I look on craigs list in NY around Long Island (where I'm from) and you do not see the quantity of pets people are looking to rehome. It seems pets are a bit more disposable down here then they are up there.



Just my 25 cents worth.

I would not feel very warm and fuzzy about those "friends" of yours!
By the way - any news on your Petplan claim? I am really holding my breath for you on that!

 

I am not going to win a popularity contest with my next statement: Dog killed due to over population is a fact of life and will probably not get any better in our lifetime.

When I lived in the state of Washington, I volunteered at the county run shelter. All paid workers and any volunteers who were in charge of a large project were required to work the "put down room" once a month. Not actually killing the dogs, a vet was required for that; but bringing the dogs in and then helping get them into the incinerator. It was a very radical policy but I understood the directors reason for having it. It brings the whole problem into a very stark reality and they way you look at the rescue process is forever changed.

One thing that I became very aware of is pet overpopulation is not the cause of one social economical, racial, age based, or urban/country group. There were "oops" puppies, "I want my kids to see birth" puppies, "I can sell these" puppies, and all kinds of other "ridiculous reasons" puppies that ended up in the shelter. And the reason for older dogs ending up there ranged from people who are a waste of air deciding they didn't want it after all to people who loved their animals like children that passing away or became to poor to pay for vet and food.

With the homeless pet problem being caused by such a wide variety of situations and mentalities, it became clear to me that we are lucky in this country the problem is not worse. This fact lead to grasping the second reality. There are not enough homes for all the dogs and cats so some will have to be put down. And it was here I started having problems with the "rescue" attitude that happens in many shelters - I would take perfectly healthy sweet dogs into the put-down room while money and energy was being directed to the sick and "aggressive breed" dogs. Yes, we all love to read about the dog who had heartworm, was treated, and now bounces through fields of tulips. But while that dogs was penned and treated, healthy dogs were killed.

And the group of people who want to prove "it isn't the breed, but the owner" that causes dog attack problems and those who have the "I can fix it" attitude when it comes to a problem shelter dog is also unaware or don't care that calm, behaved, sweet dogs who live to please an owner are being put to sleep.

I own one dog who is a rescue and one dog who was bred to the point of frozen sperm. I think about the mixed mutts who will not see tomorrow, but just like the cows and chickens that won't either, I know they are animals produced for human consumption. While some animals are born to feed our bodies, cats and dogs are born to feed our emotions. It sounds cold and heartless, but I believe it is reality. It doesn't matter if you have a three legged rescue dog or a championship pure blooded stud - that dog exists to meet your needs. And just like some people like chicken and some prefer beef, there is no right and wrong it taste.

And why do I think the problem isn't going away? We are blasted with media showing the problem of unwanted pets. (Sherlock went crazy in the car the other day because a Sara McLachlan song came on and he was looking for the stray dogs that goes along with it.) My facebook friends post one picture after another of dogs and cats in need. But like the starving children in Africa, all the attention has desensitized us to the reality. It is trendy to attack a pure breed owner for not adopting. But that is like throwing a band-aid at a person who had just been shot in the head.

Now, my soap box is getting shaky so I am getting down before I fall off. Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

No offense taken here, I think all of this can not be talked about enough. I agree with pretty much your entire post.... except that I think it can get better! Maybe I just need to believe that, but I've seen an enormous change where I live in my lifetime. When I grew up, it was pretty common to see stray dogs, and my mother used to volunteer at the shelter when I was a kid, and it was very high kill. Now, I haven't seen a stray dog in years, and that same shelter is no longer high kill. More needs to happen, but I think we are moving in the right direction, albeit slowly, some areas faster than others. Maybe I just need to believe that though :act-up:

 

To clarify one other point- the dogs that I know of that are transported via private planes come up through organizations in which pilots DONATE their time and their own planes. Pilots n Paws is an organization that does a lot of these these transports and I know the dogs that have come from Puerto Rico to this area were also through an individual who donated time and the use of their plane. My Misty is here because of Pilot n Paws. These are real grass roots efforts. Rescues aren't booking exorbitant flights for dogs.

 

Tiny P - Friends?! NO!!!! These are people I have met at the pet store or work with, definitely not friends. There was one co-worker who just go a great dane about the time of Luces 1st surgery and he said he would put it down rather then spend the money.

I've called Petplan several times - about 6! over the last 2 weeks to ask about the claim and the progress. Everyone said it will take up to 30 days and they have everything they need - ARGHHH!! I called yesterday and was told they were missing 2 years of records - well she just turned 2 in Jan!! and you have every record there is. She said she is sending it to claims herself and SHE will call me in 24-48 hours to let me know. 36 hours down and about 12 to go - we'll see. I have an appointment scheduled for her physical therapy on Friday, if Petplan reimburses for this claim they said they will pay for therapy and anything else related to this injury - holding my breadth and crossing my fingers.

Opera Poodle - Wow!! You make some great points!! I'll take it a step further - may or may not be politically correct, but here it goes. Maybe shelters would be better served if they handled things more like a business. Keep the emotions low and look at the numbers. I'm a "get the most bang for the buck" kind of gal. I would rather see resources used on healthy sweet dogs that have a chance of getting adopted rather then the sick, aggressive and yes the real old. I know that people do surrender their elderly dogs to shelters and animal control because they either can't afford the vet or have some ridiculous idea that a "miracle" will happen and the old sick dog will get adopted because he is so sweet and gentle.

As far as I know the goal is to get animals adopted, while having x amount of resources.

Just for the heck of it I just checked craigs list here in DFW TX - under pets 500 listed!!! most of them dogs/puppies, some cats, reptiles, birds, fish and assorted gear. 500!!! I bet over 300 are for dogs. I clicked on one of the dogs - 12 years old, blind and very sweet. Heart worm positive, was rescued from being killed at the shelter that day and was skinny because owner wasn't feeding it. They have spent $500 so far with another $400 due for the heart worm treatment, they are asking $100 for adoption. Makes me wonder how many healthy dogs were put to death to save this one.

I know, let the flames begin:flame::flame:

 

Just for the heck of it I just checked craigs list here in DFW TX - under pets 500 listed!!! most of them dogs/puppies, some cats, reptiles, birds, fish and assorted gear. 500!!! I bet over 300 are for dogs. I clicked on one of the dogs - 12 years old, blind and very sweet. Heart worm positive, was rescued from being killed at the shelter that day and was skinny because owner wasn't feeding it. They have spent $500 so far with another $400 due for the heart worm treatment, they are asking $100 for adoption. Makes me wonder how many healthy dogs were put to death to save this one.

I know, let the flames begin

I have people in my life who would literally beat me for suggesting what I posted above. But they are people who would freak out and never be able to go into the put-down room. $900 is a lot to put into a dog. I would put it into mine because once I adopted/purchased them, they became my sole responsibility. There is not endless money for caring for unwanted pets. Hard decisions have to be made. I'm just glad I'm not the one making them anymore.

I ran the off site adoption program (mainly at PetSmart.) Every day but Sunday, I had to walk through rows of animals and decide which ones were going that day. Since this was a county (tax dollar) ran facility, there wasn't much time to get to know an animal. I had to base it on age, cuteness, reason for surrender, and gut feeling. It wasn't nice. And let me say, I saw my share of pure bred dogs come through. It isn't a either or situation.

 

This is great discussion! It feels good to be able to say the tough things without judgement.

Opera Poodle- people like yourself who have worked in the trenches and made really hard, often unpopular decisions, need to bring their voices to the table, as those experiences shed light on the real world of shelter work. Rescue and shelter work is gritty- and very emotionally taxing. These FB posts of rescue stories with sweet music playing in the background are nice in that they bring awareness to the potential of rescue dogs, but the reality is hardly sweet music. I'll eventually get back to doing something with animal welfare, but probably not in the same way I was before. It took too much out of me. I'd like to do something to effect policy, lobbying for stricter laws, that type of thing. I did't respond to your other post yet about your plans to help change attitudes- but I like your ideas.

Luce- I hope flames don't start here- it's too valuable of a discussion. Approaching this rationally, and from a business standpoint makes a lot of sense IMO.

 

Hallelujia, Arreau! I finally got back to this post to read the article. It wouldn't come up on my phone. Beautiful, truthful, and courageous writing by Ms. Gonsalves.