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People with websites that offer show contracts when they don't have one single finished champion in their breeding program. How can they even evaluate what a show quality puppy would look like at 7-8 weeks if they've never finished one? Even if they sent a dog out with a handler at least they'd have someone available to go over the litter and evaluate puppies. Not to mention these people are typically asking the same price for a puppy that breeders that have finished and tested their dogs are asking. I guess some people think it's just enough to have health tested your dog to offer show quality puppies to unsuspecting buyers.:fish:
 

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I haven't been showing that long and I have discovered how competitive this sport really is and expensive. These people are probably trying to support their breeding program by offering to show at a discounted fee if you buy a puppy from them. This is just my theory. I agree with you, I don't understand how these people can think they can sell their puppies for show quality if they don't show and know what a show quality really is.
 

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There are many many uneducated people out there who just assume that they can put any two dogs together and produce a show puppy. Or, they don't really know or care about that and just advertise them as such. I have seen a couple *show* quality purchased puppies whose tails were bobbed as short as a cocker. Unsuspecting buyers have no clue until it is too late. A lot of pets out there have very short tails and if they haven't really been observing the show dogs, they assume the short tail is correct. It is one of the biggest red flags!
 

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Just another point of view. This may get long winded, so please forgive me if it does...

I have been involved with this breed for over 47 years. I helped my Mom and her sometimes breeding partner, Susan Fraser of Bibelot Poodles assess litters for as long as I can remember. We had many champs in our home and in my Mom's breeding program while I grew up.

I also have a condition called Agoraphobia, which literally translates to "fear of the marketplace". I have no champions in my breeding program. Part of this is because I lost my heart for the sport toward the end of my mother's years in it, because it had become political and wretched. Only dogs shown by professional handlers were being placed, even when there were many breeder/owner/handled dogs that were far superior in many cases. Then came the entire cheating issue, with people dying their dogs, putting extensions in their top knots, dying their noses. I find these practices disgusting, and it turned me off even more. Then there is the agoraphobia issue which has made it impossible to show my own dogs. Would I pay a handler¨...hmm...with the record reds have and the colour bias against Poodles of colour at dog shows, no. I am not going to end up mortgaging my home to title one of my dogs with the prejudices amongst a lot of judges against Poodles of colour. As my agoraphobia continues to improve, I can definately see a time when I will try once again. I will be particularly inclined toward outdoor shows, because my condition is always more managable in the outdoors. I would not ship one of my girls to be bred because of the horrible things that COULD happen, so I certainly would not send one of my girls off to a handler I barely know and expect them to be able to look after her like I would or like her co-owner or foster family could.

There was, in the past few months, a big news story about a handler who arrived home late from a dog show, decided that it would be better to wait until morning to remove the dogs from her vehicle, and every one of the show dogs in her charge died overnight in her van as a result. THAT is the type of stuff that can happen when you trust someone else with your dogs. Annette Shepherd at Rebelstar Poodles has an entire section on her web site about her experience when sending one of her dogs to a well known, professional handler to be conditioned and shown. THAT is the kind of stuff that can happen when you trust someone else with your dogs. So, my dogs will either be handled by me, or they will not be shown. And until my condition reaches a point where this is entirely possible, my dogs wont be shown. BUT, can I assess a show dog... Oh you can count on that. After so many years involved with Standard Poodles, I can pick an excellent quality dog with a marvelous top line, refined head, excellent angulation, good pigment, nice short back, tight feet, good bite, fantastic movement, good ear set, remarkable colour over a lovely but run of the mill puppy any day.

People really ought to stop judging others until they have walked a mile in their shoes. You have no idea how frustrating it is for me to be producing the quality of puppies I have been producing, and not be bale to show them. You have no idea how frustrating it is for me to be breeding a relatively new colour and see the colour bias that is taking place and clearly inferior white or black dogs being placed over some off the stunning silvers, apricots, browns and reds. And you have no idea how furstrating it is to remember when almost every dog was owner-handled, and there was not blatant cheating in the ring, to nearly every dog shown being presented by a professional handler, and the cheating to be there for all the world to see.

You will see Arreau champions one day soon. One of the last litter is now at Strathglen Poodles, and will be shown beginning next spring. My hope is for a pup from our 2011 litter that knocks everyones socks off, and this keeps me fighting against the agoraphobia so I can show this pup myself.

Not everyones story is cut and dried, and people should maybe consider what may be going on behind the scenes before they judge another.
 

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Right on Arreau ! That my dear was VERY well said !!!
Some folks have been in dogs for years, have been there and done that and truly do know a nice dog when they see one....Some breeders have actually done some judging of their own and do know correct movement when they see it :)
So lets take the case of Annie Rodgers Clark .. HMMM Do you think at her age she was showing? But she was breeding right? And trust me having shown to her she DID know conformation ...... So.. Me thinks that this question would not apply in every case for sure....GET TO KNOW the breeder... Plain and simple....
 

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Just another point of view. This may get long winded, so please forgive me if it does...

I have been involved with this breed for over 47 years. I helped my Mom and her sometimes breeding partner, Susan Fraser of Bibelot Poodles assess litters for as long as I can remember. We had many champs in our home and in my Mom's breeding program while I grew up.

I also have a condition called Agoraphobia, which literally translates to "fear of the marketplace". I have no champions in my breeding program. Part of this is because I lost my heart for the sport toward the end of my mother's years in it, because it had become political and wretched. Only dogs shown by professional handlers were being placed, even when there were many breeder/owner/handled dogs that were far superior in many cases. Then came the entire cheating issue, with people dying their dogs, putting extensions in their top knots, dying their noses. I find these practices disgusting, and it turned me off even more. Then there is the agoraphobia issue which has made it impossible to show my own dogs. Would I pay a handler¨...hmm...with the record reds have and the colour bias against Poodles of colour at dog shows, no. I am not going to end up mortgaging my home to title one of my dogs with the prejudices amongst a lot of judges against Poodles of colour. As my agoraphobia continues to improve, I can definately see a time when I will try once again. I will be particularly inclined toward outdoor shows, because my condition is always more managable in the outdoors. I would not ship one of my girls to be bred because of the horrible things that COULD happen, so I certainly would not send one of my girls off to a handler I barely know and expect them to be able to look after her like I would or like her co-owner or foster family could.

There was, in the past few months, a big news story about a handler who arrived home late from a dog show, decided that it would be better to wait until morning to remove the dogs from her vehicle, and every one of the show dogs in her charge died overnight in her van as a result. THAT is the type of stuff that can happen when you trust someone else with your dogs. Annette Shepherd at Rebelstar Poodles has an entire section on her web site about her experience when sending one of her dogs to a well known, professional handler to be conditioned and shown. THAT is the kind of stuff that can happen when you trust someone else with your dogs. So, my dogs will either be handled by me, or they will not be shown. And until my condition reaches a point where this is entirely possible, my dogs wont be shown. BUT, can I assess a show dog... Oh you can count on that. After so many years involved with Standard Poodles, I can pick an excellent quality dog with a marvelous top line, refined head, excellent angulation, good pigment, nice short back, tight feet, good bite, fantastic movement, good ear set, remarkable colour over a lovely but run of the mill puppy any day.

People really ought to stop judging others until they have walked a mile in their shoes. You have no idea how frustrating it is for me to be producing the quality of puppies I have been producing, and not be bale to show them. You have no idea how frustrating it is for me to be breeding a relatively new colour and see the colour bias that is taking place and clearly inferior white or black dogs being placed over some off the stunning silvers, apricots, browns and reds. And you have no idea how furstrating it is to remember when almost every dog was owner-handled, and there was not blatant cheating in the ring, to nearly every dog shown being presented by a professional handler, and the cheating to be there for all the world to see.

You will see Arreau champions one day soon. One of the last litter is now at Strathglen Poodles, and will be shown beginning next spring. My hope is for a pup from our 2011 litter that knocks everyones socks off, and this keeps me fighting against the agoraphobia so I can show this pup myself.

Not everyones story is cut and dried, and people should maybe consider what may be going on behind the scenes before they judge another.

Indeed it is very well said!
Thank you for saying it! It could not have been easy to say, but it needed saying!!! A show breeder is not automatically a good breeder! And a good breeder doesn't need to be a show breeder!
 

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Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.

The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish.

It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.
 

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Arreau I am so glad you shared this information and your point applies to many things in general when it comes to posting on a forum:) Although I think kpoos question is reasonable (as she is very interested in doing the right thing) and sometimes it takes this kind of information on a base by base situation for people to understand.
That's why I say I leave it to the Pro's!!!! I am way too inexperienced to judge UNLESS it's blatant:wacko:, but I believe in being fair! Too many times I have seen people run off this forum by the list of investigative questions (not referring to kpoos at all) more in an effort to demoralize then educate!! LMAO anymore!!! Without getting to know the situation:rolffleyes: With your experience paaaleeeaaassse - I would recommend you any day!!! You are the type of breeder I want to know, the type of breeder that cares about dogs A LOT, the type of breeder that knows her sh*t!!

Not knowing what a show quality dog is.........I agree you should not be false advertising! It is a misrepresentation to unsuspecting buyers.
 

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There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.
I agree , So many people told me poodles of color are hard to show but when we brought Enzo out so many people liked him. He won his first two shows (classes) against a silver boy and a white boy. I was really shocked when he won against the silver boy. We are determine to finish him it might take a while but who cares lol

But before we started showing him we had him evaluated by a top poodle breeder and a top poodle handler. :D

It seems like the people who say such things just don't have a good enough dog to finish in the first place. This not directed at anyone but this is from what I seen at the shows.
 

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Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.

The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish.

It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.
I am truly sorry you feel this way. You show and I do not at this point in time. I have agoraphobia and you dont. Do I expect you to understand my point of view- no I do not. Do I expect a little respect for it- yes I do. Just because my tghoughts and opinions differ from yours does not make them wrong. Please do not imply I am hollow or my point of view is hollow. You do not know me, my experience, what I stand for or what I do or do not know.
 

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Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.

The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish.

It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.
When I sold Brandi to her new people, I narrowed the show dogs in the litter down to two of five. When June Fulton (she used to do the showing) and her Granddaughter Kari (she now does the showing)came here from Alberta, they each assessed the two I had chosen for them. They felt they were both show quality, but leaned toward Brandi because her chest was a little better and her colour much darker. So, this puppy being "show quality" was not just based on my assessent. An experienced breeder/exhibitor came here to see if I indeed had show worthy puppies, agreed with my assessment and took one home with her to begin conditioning to prepare for her first shows in the spring. Do you think with the money invested in travelling here and buying a puppy that she would have left here with a puppy that she felt was not going to make it in the ring? I dont hardly think so. If she had arrived, assessed the pups and felt I was mistaken, she would have left here empty handed and waited to see what happened later on, or she would have gone to another breeder. Are you saying NONE of the three of us knows what we are talkking about?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.

The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish.

It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.
I have to agree. I mean we have someone on here that is an owner handler that has won 5 points towards the championship of her dog on her own and doing her own grooming.

The original post wasn't directed towards ANYONE on this board. I saw a website with hideous breeding dogs and wondered how in the world these people can offer a "show contract" to someone if they aren't even breeding conformationally correct standard poodles? This happens all of the time and it's a buyer beware market in dogs let me tell you.
 

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I have to agree. I mean we have someone on here that is an owner handler that has won 5 points towards the championship of her dog on her own and doing her own grooming.

The original post wasn't directed towards ANYONE on this board. I saw a website with hideous breeding dogs and wondered how in the world these people can offer a "show contract" to someone if they aren't even breeding conformationally correct standard poodles? This happens all of the time and it's a buyer beware market in dogs let me tell you.
Indeed it is!!! It is up to people interested to get to the breeders place of business, get their hands on the pups and see if they agree with the breeders assessment of the litter. I am not for one second saying you should take a breeders word at face value. If you are not sure how to assess a puppy, take someone with you who does know and get them to assess the pups the breeder is saying are show quality. But there ARE breeders who know what they are talking about who are not trying to mislead anyone.
 

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When I sold Brandi to her new people, I narrowed the show dogs in the litter down to two of five. When June Fulton (she used to do the showing) and her Granddaughter Kari (she now does the showing)came here from Alberta, they each assessed the two I had chosen for them. They felt they were both show quality, but leaned toward Brandi because her chest was a little better and her colour much darker. So, this puppy being "show quality" was not just based on my assessent. An experienced breeder/exhibitor came here to see if I indeed had show worthy puppies, agreed with my assessment and took one home with her to begin conditioning to prepare for her first shows in the spring. Do you think with the money invested in travelling here and buying a puppy that she would have left here with a puppy that she felt was not going to make it in the ring? I dont hardly think so. If she had arrived, assessed the pups and felt I was mistaken, she would have left here empty handed and waited to see what happened later on, or she would have gone to another breeder. Are you saying NONE of the three of us knows what we are talkking about?
I wanted to point out i was agreeing with Cbrand on the color issue. I think if you are breeding dogs and don't show at least have a judge or a few people evaluate your dogs. Like Kspoo said I see too many people saying show quality and their dogs look like a train wreck ! I think its sad that these types of breeders actually think their dogs are beautiful :wacko:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I also wanted to say that if you aren't showing yourself because of a medical condition but feel you are producing show quality dogs then if you have produced champions obviously you are in a position to judge the quality of the puppies. It's a gamble even for breeders that know exactly what they are producing to say "show quality" because things can fall apart later but if you know what you've produced in the past holds up and finishes or at least does well in the ring, statistics say that you are going to get the same with repeat breedings.

I talked to a woman that sold puppies on "show contracts" but she had one finished champion and had produced none but her argument on the breeding was that she knows what it was going to produce so she went forward with the repeat of it. Unless you are just breeding dogs to supply the pet market, there is no reason to continue to breed them if you aren't getting the quality that would finish in the ring.
 

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I agree with Roxy entirely. There are some dogs of colour being put up in the ring, but it is a proportionally small number. I also agree that you have to be careful. ANYONE can say ANYTHING about their dogs. A lot of breeders are totally kennel blind, and think their dogs are the best out there. But if you are dealing with someone experienced in the breed, then you go to them and assess the litter yourself, OR you take someone with you who can. Not everyone in this business is shady or stupid or inexperienced or kennel blind.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
A LOT of people are kennel blind Arreau. No one wants to say that there might be something wrong with their dogs and will defend flaws and make excuses for problems until the buyer believes them. You have no idea how many people I've heard say that "their dogs don't do that" or "the temperaments in all of their dogs are perfect."
 

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A LOT of people are kennel blind Arreau. No one wants to say that there might be something wrong with their dogs and will defend flaws and make excuses for problems until the buyer believes them. You have no idea how many people I've heard say that "their dogs don't do that" or "the temperaments in all of their dogs are perfect."
I know I hate when a breeder says there is nothing wrong with their dogs. I remember commenting on a breeders dogs and asked about it to the breeder. The reply I got is "I think they are fine" LOL ok ......:bird:
 

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There are kennel blind people in EVERY breed .. I agree that you should foster the relationship, with the breeder. And even if you have to pay someone to go with you take someone with you that can help you assess, another opinion is VERY important.. WE used to have litter rating parties .... A good breeder will look at 8 weeks weed out the pets and hang on the the potential show pups until 12 weeks .. This is how you assess a show dog.. Not before those times and then dont look at them again until they are at least 4 months.......And even in the best of situations lots of things can still happen to the "Show Quality " puppy....
 
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