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Discussion Starter #1
Would you guys buy/consider buying from a breeder that has an Excellent reputation, does all the health testing, shows her dogs, BUT has bred one bitch 6 times and another bitch 4 times?

I am having trouble getting over this. Everything else looks good, and she is very well known. This is the only thing ive found so far that i dont like, but i dont know if *I* think it is enough or not to cross her off my list.
 

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Absolutely.

6 times is quite a lot, but was the bitch producing amazing puppies? I believe that a bitch who is a great producer should be bred. She gives back to the gene pool in a big way. I would rather see a great producer have 6 litters than an average bitch have two. This would all have to quantifiable for me though. If you are going to breed a bitch 6 times there better be evidence that she is an amazing producer. It would not be enough for me to have a breeder say, "Oh her puppies are amazing!" I would want to see titles, conformation or performance to prove that her puppies were closely meeting the breed standard ideal.

Keep in mind too that if you are breeder, you often want to see what your line produces when bred to different studs. For this reason, I think it is totally reasonable to breed a bitch 4 times.

Finally, every bitch is different. My Sabrina was a breeding machine. At the end of 8 weeks, you would never know that she had even had a litter. She was ready to go right back into the Obedience ring. Now Gracy? Not so much... one litter just about did her in.
 

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Were they bred back to back to back or were they given a break between litters?
Was it detrimental to the bitch?

For me, it would come down to the bitches' health first and then to the puppies!
But how can you know about it (the health part) if you are not part of the process? How can you determine (as a buyer) that the bitch was healthy enough to have healthy puppies after 3 or more litters in a row?

Also, as a buyer, it might be hard to find out it! Most buyers do not know enough to check everything!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thats true Carol, thankyou. I was hoping to get other views good and bad on the matter. This bitch produced 20 champions out of those litters (one litter had 8 champions, not sure how many were in the litter total, but wow). I would call that a top producer. I dont know about performance titles. The breeders website is not helpful at all, and almost no pictures. She is close enough to me that i would like to visit her sometime though.

I would assume that alot were back to back breedings though. If she is at least 2 years old before being bred (they do OFA), and has 6 litters, then depending on when she was first bred and how often her heats are then she would of been breed at over 8 years old. So i would assume (hope) that some were back to back.
 

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I can only think of one, off hand... Graphic Sauvie Quick Silver. But I don't know how many finished Ch's she's produced.
There were many, but I agree 20 is quite something!
 

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I checked my SPD, she had 13.
Off the top of my head, I think Molly Brown's Cream de Cocao and Joycelyn Marjorie may have had 20-21, but I can't think of any others.
Carole
 

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This bitch produced 20 champions out of those litters (one litter had 8 champions, not sure how many were in the litter total, but wow). I would call that a top producer.
Just food for thought with a pro handler anything is possible ;)

I would not be worried I totally agree with cbrand on this.
 

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Numbers Game

I don't get hung up on the "numbers" game.

Every "BREEDER" will have a different way of doing things or an idea on what is acceptible.

I look at the female and if she is healthy, still producing healthy pups
conforming to the breed standard (which these obviously are) well I would have my answer and all things considered (health, title, testing) I would purchase a puppy "despite" the amount of litters.
Must be one healthy mom too...good sign :)

Obviously this person is breeding with a goal in mind (champions) so she is doing a breeding for a purpose as well.
 

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I would consider the breeder, yes. That fact alone would not turn me off him or her. My main interest would be in visiting and seeing what quality of life the dogs she has bred have. The 4 litters I'm comfortable with, 6 does start to make me a little uneasy. While that bitch may be a top producer, she has spent a whole year of her life pregnant and another whole year raising puppies. I'd want to know what she's been up to outside of her mothering.

Every puppy buyer is different. For me, it's not just about producing "the perfect poodle". Its also about ensuring the breeder treats their dogs in the way that I am comfortable with them being treated. So if I were you, I'd be going to meet the breeder, check out their facility and talk about their breeding program. Then I'd have a much better idea of whether I was comfortable with those numbers or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ok, so apparently i wasnt reading fully. This website is very hard to understand, but this bitch was born early 90's. She is not even living, but Did produce this many champion offspring. She is Ch. Safari's Evensong. I know safari is very well known in the show world. Does anyone have any first hand experience with them? What are their dogs like? What kind of home life do the dogs have (kennel, house?)? How are their temperaments?
 

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I do not like their "deposit" policy - it does not mention puppy temperament at all !!!!! It concentrates on color and gender and nothing else. Also - for me it is very important that puppy does not have any of the major faults . What if there is one white female (supposedly your preference) , but she has off-bite and bad feet ??? If you refuse her - than your deposit would be "forfeit" according to their statement :eek:hwell:

Than this : "D. Genetic health guarantee. In addition, if the dog is diagnosed as having hip dysplasia, sebaceous adenitis, von Willebrand’s disease, or genetic eye disease within 6 months prior to 24 months of age, seller shall at buyer's option, replace dog under terms specified above (buyer pays for transportation but not a new dog)."

They give health warranty for only 2 years - I like to see longer warranties ...

Since they give such short warranty - I would make absolutely sure that I see every single test done and all results before I go on with the purchase, and I would make sure that "addendum " is attached that includes very detailed description of "what kind of puppy" I am looking for so there wold be no disputes about puppy temperament or quality and deposit refund.

In general - I like breeders who give deposits back more freely and many do,
since most really good breeders have already LISTS of people that are waiting for their litters and do not need to "force" puppy buyers to "stick" around ; ) or should do so !!! If somebody "does NOT WANT A PUPPY" why would you "make them" buy it :doh:

Actually - I would never give deposit before the litter is on the ground and about 4 weeks and looks promising !!!



Best of luck :)
 

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I don't think they make them buy the puppy. What they do is keep money and sell the puppy to someone else.
 

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I know LOL - they sell the puppy , of course - but people who give deposit and are going to loose it sometimes feel pressured to buy since money is already given and they start "rationalizing" and per swaying themselves that "it is a good puppy after all " LOL

If I was a breeder - I would never sell u puppy to a person who is "iffy" about the whole thing. I think that most good breeders also would not sell puppy to somebody who "is not happy " or sure and would give the deposit back !!! I know of many that do.

On what grounds one keeps the deposit ??? It is not like particular puppy was specifically brought to this world for that specific person and now that it is "out" - oh NO - what now LMAO !!!????

I would understand it in only one circumstance - that deposit was given after 8 weeks of age - after puppy was examined , tested and agreed upon for purchase and breeder had to turn down offers of other people and lost good home for that puppy .

I know of a breeders who would actually take puppy back with full refund after one week if arrangement does not work out , especially if puppy was shipped.
 

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Lots of good points.


I agree... who would ever force their beloved puppy on someone not wanting it? I can't imagine why not though. :)

I sent a deposit back to someone that backed out, nothing to do with the puppy... but she asked if I'd return it because her husband was going to have some treatments for newly discoverd cancer. Sure, I thought, she could be lying... but I wasn't going to keep money when it could have very well been true and they need it as well.
I got the sweetest thank you card, that made me cry ... and we've stayed in touch for over a year now. It would never have been worth keeping their money.

Now regarding waiting to send in your deposit till they are 4 weeks old.... you have to realize you take the risk to be down on the list or not on it at all, if you wait that long. I have someone buying one of my silver boys, this litter... it's his 3rd time. He keeps thinking he'll come over and spend time with the pups and see if they'll connect. Well, each time it was too late, connection or not! So he discovered... you snooze, you lose! 'Course you need to feel good about the breeder to begin with!
 

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Oh well that's happen to me before. He was ready to go, health certificate and all... but we couldn't get our schedules right for the puppy to have a short, straight flight. So they kept their dep with me for the next litter. It was frustrating, of course, but I also felt their home was not meant to be for him then. So he went to another wonderful home 2 hours away, so no need for that health certificate!
I look at the long term relationship...
 

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See I had a similar experience with a mini breeder. The way she did things was to take deposits on a specific puppy but the litter was like 1 week old. Well, how am I supposed to put a deposit on a week old puppy? What if the puppy I pick at 1 week changes to something I don't like at 6 weeks? Or the litter is evaluated and the puppy I put a deposit on is deemed not a fit temperament for my household? That is just way too early to pick a puppy. The breeder wasn't pressuring me to put a deposit but did say that it's on a first come first serve basis and in that case I'd most likely lose out on the puppy that I had my eye on because I just won't commit on a litter that young. Why not wait to take money from people when the puppies are easier to assess or if you have a list of people wanting pets, put them in order of deposits received and pick a puppy for them based on what fits with their lifestyle? I passed on that breeder.
 

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Safari and Pinafore are breeders I would be honored to have a poodle from. I don't think Cynthia needs to worry about finding homes for her pups under any circumstance.
On another note, the litter she has on her page-
I saw the sire, Magin Driving Me Crazy at a show here last year, I really liked that dog, he had some substance to him.
Carole
 

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