Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
It is genetic testing for their breeder dogs. It tests for genetic disorders, but it really doesn’t say what they check for. (At least in the bit of reading I thought it was all rather vague).

**I did go and have a closer look but it doesn’t look like they really do the relevant testing.

Here is the link for Paw print Genetic Testing

The page it goes to is tests you can have done specifically for Standard Poodles. I have a reason for asking.

I almost never go on Craigslist to see what’s going on in the pet posts. I did today, and I’m so sorry I did. The area I checked, the first 100 ads were almost all (what I believe to be) puppy mills: at the least unethical breeders.

Much to my chagrin, I found several ads for standard poodle puppies, and they were all different places. I am so heartsick about this.

I picked one randomly and sent a message. I simply said that since they do the health advertising, would they send me the link for the OFA test results. Here is what I was told in reply:

“Our parents are dna tested and clear on either or both pawprints or embark. We have breed our lines for over 15 years with show and service dogs through out our lines. We choose not to OFA due to personal beliefs”

I am not divulging what area I checked or the name of the “breeder”. Of course no name of a kennel was offered and neither was a link to check results on parents. My guess is they either don’t do it, or they have too many parents to keep track of.

Didn’t Craigslist used to remove all ads that were obviously “breeders”? Last I knew it was only to rehome pets and not to sell.

I’m sure everyone is ultra aware of this horrible problem, just took me by surprise. And the answer I got to my question is alarming to me. And no I am not looking to buy a poodle puppy on CL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,525 Posts
Paw prints is a perfectly respectable genetic testing company and plenty of reputable breeders use it. They do breed panel testing that will test for all things relevant to particular breeds. Anybody selling on craigslist is not somebody I would buy from. Though I'm curious what their beliefs on OFA are.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Paw prints is a perfectly respectable genetic testing company and plenty of reputable breeders use it. They do breed panel testing that will test for all things relevant to particular breeds. Anybody selling on craigslist is not somebody I would buy from. Though I'm curious what their beliefs on OFA are.
Thank you. I had never heard of this testing company before so I didn’t know. I, too would never buy a puppy from Craigslist. And I also would like to know about their beliefs about OFA.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,611 Posts
I was in another thread asking about labs and found this list on the OFA site of labs that they use or accept results from.

Simply using that or any lab for "testing" doesn't mean they're doing the recommended panels for breed and variety.

https://www.ofa.org/dna-test-labs



I don't know about Craigslist, I haven't looked, but I can tell you that I saw a lot of "puppies for rehoming" on the Canadian equivalent. Puppies which were only 6 weeks old at the time of the posting! And that was just one of 2 or 3 litters from the same source within a month or so.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,319 Posts
I'm moving this thread to our Poodle Breeding subforum since it's a better fit there and so more interested parties will read it.

***

Here's the list of all laboratories endorsed by the OFA.

Paw Prints is top of the line in DNA testing and included in the OFA. Like a few other test sites, e.g. BetterBred, if you test your dog there, you have the option to make the results available online. They both have very informative blogs too.

It's to the advantage of any buyer to learn which tests are ideal for their breed. The OFA screenings are narrow and doesn't cover all the available genetic testing available. For example, here are their basic recommendations for Toy Poodles, Miniature Poodles, Standard Poodles. A buyer could see those screenings have been done, but not others such as:

464841


Thus a buyer could have a false sense of security from OFA recommended screenings which won't show if a dog has one of the other genetic conditions like DM or Von Willebrand for which a small but significant number of poodles have a carrier gene or have two genes and will be affected. (Btw, that lab and nearly all the others routinely have 40% discounts, sometimes 50% discounts, so that final cost could be around $137 per dog for a poodle panel.)

It's important for a buyer to know which tests have been omitted. If I see the results online or in the original paperwork for all the tests except one, it raises a red flag.

IMHO, if a breeder has done extensive testing, I wouldn't assume they're a byb or puppy mill even if they're selling puppies on Craigslist. They may have only one or two nice females and only breed once a year and not be connected to show world or performance sports, but at least they had the common sense and ethics to do testing before breeding. It's up to the buyer at that point if they simply want a genetically healthy poodle and to know what a well-bred poodle looks like.

It's disturbing to think that some puppy mills could have stepped up their game by now doing genetic health testing since the living conditions are horrible. Reading fmj's "Buying a puppy safely" should eliminate buying from of these in most cases.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thank you Vita for putting this thread in a better place. I had used the Poodle ad as an example. There are so many so-called “designer dog” puppies available it’s sickening. I didn’t look at a lot of those ads, but my gut feeling is that they may advertise they’ve done the testing, but for whatever reason they might give, no one actually can see the results, leading me to believe they were never done.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I just checked my email and have a response to my 2nd email. I asked him to provide the link to where I could see the test results for the parents of the puppies now available. He basically told me I could call him to “discuss” testing. Still makes me wonder...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,319 Posts
...He basically told me I could call him to “discuss” testing. Still makes me wonder...
This is for pure poodle pups? If you do call him, please do tell us which tests he has on each parent and from which lab. It would be interesting to know what he says.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Yes, pure standard poodles. I am going to call this weekend. I'm really curious as to what he wants to "discuss' about DNA testing, and once again I will ask for a link where I can go view them myself. If a toy breeder was giving me this runaround, I'd run the other way! But yes, I will definitely update what he says about it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I'm sorry there's been no update yet as I haven't had the opportunity to call. I'll do my best to call him today. I also want to ask why he advertises on craigslist, which is supposed to remove all ads by breeders.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
So I just got off the phone with Justin. I was pretty blown away by his answers: not at all what I expected. He says he is a hobby breeder and usually has 3 litters a year. Pups they keep for breeding are shown to CH with a handler. He told me they use both Pawprint and Embark testing. Once a person is interested in a puppy/litter he provides the names of both sire and dam and whatever is needEd to view Their pedigrees and the testing that’s been done. He says they don’t do OFA because there are different vets who can differ greatly. For instance, one says poor hips and the next finds the dog at great hips. He says it’s not worth the money to have such varying determinations.


All his dogs live in the house and the puppies are raised with 8 year old twins. There are no kennels on his property. I didn’t ask how many dogs he’s got but I’m assuming not very many. He gets the puppies used to the sound and feel of clippers and dryers starting at 4 weeks. While he can’t do the face that young, he still gets them acclimated to grooming. I forget what ages he will start these, but will start litter box training and then begin their outdoor potty training. He doesn’t let them out of the house until 6 weeks old when he gives them their first vaccines. I didn’t ask if he gets health certificates, but I’m pretty sure he does as it’s required by law here to sell puppies, and they have to be at least 8 weeks old.

I asked why he advertises on Craigslist when so many there are assumed to be BYB and puppy mills. He said his degree is in marketing and free advertising is free advertising. He does the work to weed out people that would not be good fits for his puppies. He and his wife both work full time jobs which is why only 3 litters a year. They won’t take on more than can be properly attended to and socialized. They also are on puppy find and next day puppy. ( Not pleases with that myself).

They have no website, but can be found on Facebook at:

CarpenterCaro Puppies


I am certain I left out a whole lot of questions and issues to be addressed, but he wasn’t “squirming” to answer all that I asked. He sounded very confidant and proud of his dogs and how they are raised.

Like I said I was taken by surprise! I’d made a judgment about them just because they advertise on Craigslist. I’m still a tiny bit Leary about that choice. So what do you all think? I’ve never talked to a hobby breeder that do all he says they do.

His prices vary, and sadly yes, also because of colors, but also depend which line he has bred. So a Spoo puppy there can cost between $1200 and $3500.

ETA: He doesn’t take deposits until the puppies are on the ground. He gets word out to those who’ve expressed the desire to get a puppy. The deposit is $500 (I forgot to ask if that was refundable).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,852 Posts
Hmmm? I think he sounds pretty good, but there are a few things I don't like, him not doing OFA, the websites he advertises on, and I don't like that his prices vary with colors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,525 Posts
I think that's just a stupid fake reason to not do OFA. Vets don't grade the x rays. You have a vet do the x rays and then they send them to OFA which then sends you the results. Unless I'm mistaken. But the one thing that can differ is how the hips appear based on the vet's skill in positioning correctly for x rays. But I'm fairly sure OFA will not grade hips with bad x rays. They will tell you to resend new ones. My guess is he doesn't do OFA because it costs money he doesn't want to spend. Blegh.

Also, if the pups he keeps are shown to CH with a handler, I see no evidence. I do not see any evidence that the dogs he breeds have been shown at all. They simply state that they are from "champion lines" but never state anything about the dogs themselves. And I get the feeling from the ads that they would definitely say if the parents were CH. I don't see any mention of showing anywhere on his facebook at all, though it's possible I've missed something. But I don't think so.

I would never buy from such an individual, but I'm sure they're better than the average backyard breeder. They probably do a relatively good job with their dogs. Just not to the standard I would look for. And also if he is lying about the showing I really don't like that.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Very interesting points you all have made. I didn’t spend any time on the Facebook page so didn’t see for myself what you’re talking about. I guess he could have lied about having his dogs shown. I think maybe the answers he gave me may have been too good. See? I can be suckered in. Like I said his answers took me by surprise. I think you’re right about him not wanting to spend money. “Not worth the money” came up more than once.

At least I’m not looking to buy a spoo puppy. I was suspicious that they didn’t have their own website. When I bred rats, I had a Facebook page, but also a website that was much more than mainly pictures. Went much more in depth than I did on Facebook. But I wasn’t advertising on Facebook either. It was mainly for new and older owners to be able to see all the “fun” pics that didn’t go on the site, and where soon-to-be owners could watch their babies grow up. You’d think after having bred rats and having such standards among many other things I’d be less inclined to believe what someone says. Maybe that’s why he wouldn’t tell me anything in email as he is really compelling when speaking to him. I don’t know. Maybe I did get duped?

This is really great for me to see all the points you and others will bring up. It’s kind of like “practice” for when it’s time to seriously look for my toy puppy. I also thought the pricing was a bit low on that end. It surprised me to hear the pricing after all he said. I do think he’s better than a BYB but am glad he only has 3 litters a year. Hopefully he’s not lying about that, but it’s easily checked by going back on Facebook.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,525 Posts
Very interesting points you all have made. I didn’t spend any time on the Facebook page so didn’t see for myself what you’re talking about. I guess he could have lied about having his dogs shown. I think maybe the answers he gave me may have been too good. See? I can be suckered in. Like I said his answers took me by surprise. I think you’re right about him not wanting to spend money. “Not worth the money” came up more than once.

At least I’m not looking to buy a spoo puppy. I was suspicious that they didn’t have their own website. When I bred rats, I had a Facebook page, but also a website that was much more than mainly pictures. Went much more in depth than I did on Facebook. But I wasn’t advertising on Facebook either. It was mainly for new and older owners to be able to see all the “fun” pics that didn’t go on the site, and where soon-to-be owners could watch their babies grow up. You’d think after having bred rats and having such standards among many other things I’d be less inclined to believe what someone says. Maybe that’s why he wouldn’t tell me anything in email as he is really compelling when speaking to him. I don’t know. Maybe I did get duped?

This is really great for me to see all the points you and others will bring up. It’s kind of like “practice” for when it’s time to seriously look for my toy puppy. I also thought the pricing was a bit low on that end. It surprised me to hear the pricing after all he said. I do think he’s better than a BYB but am glad he only has 3 litters a year. Hopefully he’s not lying about that, but it’s easily checked by going back on Facebook.
Well he also has two males that he studs out, and he has ads for stud service everywhere. I can't find evidence... but I wouldn't be super surprised to find he is willing to stud to other breeds. He certainly doesn't say he isn't. One ad in particular gives different pricing based on whether it's with AKC registration for litters or not, which gives me an icky feeling and says he's not too picky. He never states full names of his dogs anywhere, which is something I expect from breeders that show in conformation or sport.

Another thing to consider about pricing... the reason good breeders don't make money is they have a lot of expenses. Showing a dog is very expensive, and then there's also the health testing of which OFA is the most pricey. So if you don't have those costs... you could make quite a bit of profit. He probably is charging the prices that he is able to get people to pay. Otherwise he wouldn't be pricing differently based on color.

They do look nicely groomed.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,319 Posts
I'm enjoying the conversation but as Super Mod need to intervene for a moment. Speculation of this sort a good example in how rumors and damaged reputations can start, and then has the potential to snowball:

From Raindrops:
... And also if he is lying about the showing I really don't like that.

From Jojogal01:
... I guess he could have lied about having his dogs shown... Maybe I did get duped?... I do think he’s better than a BYB but am glad he only has 3 litters a year. Hopefully he’s not lying about that...



I'll give an example of how negative, speculative gossip plays out.

Neighbor A speculates: She says she has a degree in XYZ, and her income is from working remotely from home processing contracts. If she lying about her degree, I really don't like that.

Neighbor B snowballs: I guess she could have lied about her degree, but maybe I got duped. I hope she's not lying about how she gets her money.



We will never know what others are doing unless we ask them. Yes, they might fudge or outright lie. Without evidence, however, when we speculate we are not being fair to them because what they've said could be the truth. When in doubt, go to the source and ask.

It's fair to say you don't like how someone is running their breeding program and to point out factual observations, like this:

Quote from Fenris-wolf:
Hmmm... there are a few things I don't like, him not doing OFA, the websites he advertises on, and I don't like that his prices vary with colors.


Thus, there's no need to negatively speculate on things we don't know about, since there are already things we do know about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,611 Posts
Last night I did some internet searches based on info presented in the thread. I plan to try several ways of presenting the information.

Carpenter Caro poodles "factual info" from the internet
Without opinion or comments. Clarifications only are added.

465180


465179


465181



Also Emperor Ling, pictured elsewhere, 4 studs total named.

465182


465188


465189


Dams: Lady Lucille Ball, Lady Lucinda, Empress Lola, Princess Lala, 4 total named.

465186


465190


continued next post due to photo limits
 
  • Like
Reactions: Raindrops

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,611 Posts
See date of arrival
465191
Litter arrived soon after 1-18 date of posting
465192
Litter arrived soon after 1-18 date of posting
465193
New Partner announcement 3-2
465194


465195


465196
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
529 Posts
Oh boy, can't wait for the opinions/comments! Its nice I'm not the only insomniac on PF.
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top