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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone,

Happy Friday good god I was ready for this week to be over lmao. I found a breeder that I really like (Wolfe Island Poodles), has anyone purchased from them before. I am about to make my deposit for a puppy for next year and was wondering if anyone would recommend them. They are based in Texas and there fur babies look so beautiful.

Thank you
 

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I'm also very happy it's Friday!

I've not heard of Wolfe Island Poodles. Have you visited them yet? Or just spoken on the phone?

I learned my lesson with Peggy and would only consider a breeder now who temperament tests before matching their poodle puppies with prospective owners. This can't be done until 7 weeks, so a breeder who lets buyers choose before then is doing a disservice to both puppy and human. It's in everyone's best interest that you're matched with the right puppy for you.

What kind of health testing and early socialization does Wolfe Island do? Doing a quick google search, it looks like they offer their studs for doodle breeding. In fact, they are open to breeding them with "any large breed."

This could be a red flag, so I'd recommend not proceeding until you've checked out where the puppies are raised and met the dam (and ideally the sire, too, if possible).
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I'm also very happy it's Friday!

I've not heard of Wolfe Island Poodles. Have you visited them yet? Or just spoken on the phone?

I learned my lesson with Peggy and would only consider a breeder now who temperament tests before matching their poodle puppies with prospective owners. This can't be done until 7 weeks, so a breeder who lets buyers choose before then is doing a disservice to both puppy and human. It's in everyone's best interest that you're matched with the right puppy for you.

What kind of health testing and early socialization does Wolfe Island do? Doing a quick google search, it looks like they offer their studs for doodle breeding. In fact, they are open to breeding them with "any large breed."

This could be a red flag, so I'd recommend not proceeding until you've checked out where the puppies are raised and met the dam (and ideally the sire, too, if possible).
We spoke through Facebook and a red flag for me was she was very short and not very communicative. I also saw that and that’s why I didn’t give her a deposit. I for one don’t want to purchase a puppy that’s not health tested, they are also not registered with AKC or state anything about that on their website. I guess I will continue my search, I don’t want to spend my hard earn money on a puppy that’s not breed properly.
 

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I have not done a full thorough search on them, but there were some things I noted when I looked at the website.

First, there is a paypal link to immediately put a deposit down without any sort of application or interview. This is a big red flag for me. A reputable breeder thoroughly vets prospective puppy buyers. I talked to my dog's breeder for hours (plus application and references) before she agreed to let me put down a deposit. A good breeder won't let pups go to just anybody.

Second, I do not find evidence that all of their dogs have completed OFA recommended health tests. They mention OFA on the website but only one wolfe island dog is on the OFA database and that's still incomplete testing. I would need to verify all the parents' testing if I were looking to get a puppy. Some breeders fail to list things through OFA, but it means you need to do more work to verify it with them.

The health contract looks fairly standard, though I don't see anything in the contract about how the dog may be returned to the breeder at any point (though obviously not with money back). This clause is something I look for in a reputable breeder because it shows they take responsibility for their puppies and will never allow them to end up in a shelter.

All in all they wouldn't be a breeder I would choose, though they are no doubt better than a puppy mill or average backyard breeder. I second PtP's note about choosing pups. Temperament testing is typically done around 7 weeks. I personally don't feel like temperament testing is necessarily required, but I certainly want the breeder to pair dogs with families based on temperament. My dog was not paired with me until 8 weeks. He wasn't temperament tested but he was chosen by the breeder based on temperament qualities.

My general feeling is that this is a for-profit operation that has different priorities than I look for in a breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have not done a full thorough search on them, but there were some things I noted when I looked at the website.

First, there is a paypal link to immediately put a deposit down without any sort of application or interview. This is a big red flag for me. A reputable breeder thoroughly vets prospective puppy buyers. I talked to my dog's breeder for hours (plus application and references) before she agreed to let me put down a deposit. A good breeder won't let pups go to just anybody.

Second, I do not find evidence that all of their dogs have completed OFA recommended health tests. They mention OFA on the website but only one wolfe island dog is on the OFA database and that's still incomplete testing. I would need to verify all the parents' testing if I were looking to get a puppy. Some breeders fail to list things through OFA, but it means you need to do more work to verify it with them.

The health contract looks fairly standard, though I don't see anything in the contract about how the dog may be returned to the breeder at any point (though obviously not with money back). This clause is something I look for in a reputable breeder because it shows they take responsibility for their puppies and will never allow them to end up in a shelter.

All in all they wouldn't be a breeder I would choose, though they are no doubt better than a puppy mill or average backyard breeder. I second PtP's note about choosing pups. Temperament testing is typically done around 7 weeks. I personally don't feel like temperament testing is necessarily required, but I certainly want the breeder to pair dogs with families based on temperament. My dog was not paired with me until 8 weeks. He wasn't temperament tested but he was chosen by the breeder based on temperament qualities.

My general feeling is that this is a for-profit operation that has different priorities than I look for in a breeder.

Thank you so much! everything you said made sense and the fact that when I texted her she wasn’t too communicative and didn’t go into details about her business was a red flag for me. Even family affairs standards did a better job talking about their pups than she did, she never spoke about the testing and if they will temperament check. I also don’t like the fact that these pups are having their tails docked, I guess I’ll have to keep on looking. Why is it so hard to find a good breeder ughhhhh
 

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Thank you so much! everything you said made sense and the fact that when I texted her she wasn’t too communicative and didn’t go into details about her business was a red flag for me. Even family affairs standards did a better job talking about their pups than she did, she never spoke about the testing and if they will temperament check. I also don’t like the fact that these pups are having their tails docked, I guess I’ll have to keep on looking. Why is it so hard to find a good breeder ughhhhh
It's always a long and tedious process of finding a breeder that is a good match, but especially now with the increase in demand due to covid. Finding an undocked dog is considerably more difficult but it can be done. For myself, I like undocked and long docks. It may be something you will have to consider compromising on. I was looking for a dog with dewclaws intact and did find one from an excellent breeder, but it was not a deal breaker for me.

Rose n Poos has probably mentioned, but PCA is a great resource for breeder referrals as well. And you know they have standards for who they refer you to.
 

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In Texas I would look at Betty Brown, Donnchada.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
It's always a long and tedious process of finding a breeder that is a good match, but especially now with the increase in demand due to covid. Finding an undocked dog is considerably more difficult but it can be done. For myself, I like undocked and long docks. It may be something you will have to consider compromising on. I was looking for a dog with dewclaws intact and did find one from an excellent breeder, but it was not a deal breaker for me.

Rose n Poos has probably mentioned, but PCA is a great resource for breeder referrals as well. And you know they have standards for who they refer you to.
I find myself up at 3am looking for breeders I think I am losing it lmao. Supposedly having their tails docked is not good for them and it hurts the poor puppy. I don’t know how I feel about it as of now but I am pretty sure I won’t get the tail docked. The declawing is something I was looking into as well, I will definitely look into PCA and if I have to wait longer to get the pup I’ll just wait and find the right breeder. I found a breeder in Alabama but she wanted 3500$ for the tail not getting docked and puppy not getting declawed.

Thank you
 

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I find myself up at 3am looking for breeders I think I am losing it lmao. Supposedly having their tails docked is not good for them and it hurts the poor puppy. I don’t know how I feel about it as of now but I am pretty sure I won’t get the tail docked. The declawing is something I was looking into as well, I will definitely look into PCA and if I have to wait longer to get the pup I’ll just wait and find the right breeder. I found a breeder in Alabama but she wanted 3500$ for the tail not getting docked and puppy not getting declawed.

Thank you
I have read a lot about it as well. Properly docked tails seem to cause very minimal distress for the puppy. The dewclaws have arguments for and against them. In the end, for me, neither is a strong ethical concern. It is something I like and would affect my breeder choice if I had two otherwise perfect breeders. But it's not a high priority for me. There have been discussions on here about them. If it is important to you, that's totally fine. I would just advise thinking about what extra lengths you are willing to go to for a puppy like that. And whether this will cause you to make other compromises.
 

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The issue as I understand things is that docking tails and removing dewclaws is best done when the pups are very young and not fully neurologically developed (low sensory awareness other than olfaction). If a breeder normally does do docking and dewclaws then you are committing to a particular puppy at 2-3 days of age vs. weeks old when personalities are becoming well formed and judgements about temperament can be made.

BTW there are members here who have Donnchada dogs that sound like really great dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The issue as I understand things is that docking tails and removing dewclaws is best done when the pups are very young and not fully neurologically developed (low sensory awareness other than olfaction). If a breeder normally does do docking and dewclaws then you are committing to a particular puppy at 2-3 days of age vs. weeks old when personalities are becoming well formed and judgements about temperament can be made.

BTW there are members here who have Donnchada dogs that sound like really great dogs.
I am actually reading about tail docking and declawing. Some of these websites make it sound so inhumane, as long as is trauma free and is good for them I will go for it. I also contacted Donnchada hopefully they will reply soon. I found another place called Luckys Legacy Standards ever heard of them? They are on the good dog website.
 

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I have read a lot about it as well. Properly docked tails seem to cause very minimal distress for the puppy. The dewclaws have arguments for and against them. In the end, for me, neither is a strong ethical concern. It is something I like and would affect my breeder choice if I had two otherwise perfect breeders. But it's not a high priority for me. There have been discussions on here about them. If it is important to you, that's totally fine. I would just advise thinking about what extra lengths you are willing to go to for a puppy like that. And whether this will cause you to make other compromises.
i am still educating myself about tail docking and what I am compromising because i don’t want anything that’s going to affect the pup and his health. I also decided to call my vet and ask him questions about tail docking on Tuesday.
 

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i am still educating myself about tail docking and what I am compromising because i don’t want anything that’s going to affect the pup and his health. I also decided to call my vet and ask him questions about tail docking on Tuesday.
The only affect I'm aware of that it can have on health is with females there is increased risk of urinary incontinence. But my guess is that's not a big issue for docked poodles because the tails are docked long. I can see how it would be an issue in breeds (and byb poodles) where the tail is just a little nub. The tail is useful for dog communication and for balance. But a properly docked poodle has a tail of sufficient length that it should still be useful for these things. On the flip side, some undocked poodles have tails that are so long (kangaroo tails they're called) that I wonder if they might negatively affect balance. Everybody is shocked to hear that Misha's tail is docked because it's fairly long. To the average person he probably appears to have a normal length tail. Here's the true length of it.
469951
 

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I looked at the Wolfe Island web page and their Facebook info - definitely not impressed. It seriously looks like a puppy mill to be avoided. The same applies to Lucky's Legacy.

Docking tails and removing dewclaws occurs at 2 to 3 days of age - before the nervous system in the extremities is very developed. Experienced breeders normally do this themselves since most veterinarians dock tails much too short. Tail docking is done for reason of appearance. Dewclaws are removed to prevent their being torn later in life (our rescue Lab did not have hers removed and has torn them several times - resulting in a lot of pain).

Reputable breeders test their breeding stock for heritable diseases. You will find the list of heritable diseases for each size of poodle on the poodleclubofamerica.org - click on "All About Poodles - Health Concerns. Donnchada is certainly reputable. My miniature from Donnchada came with certified pedigrees for each parent and copies of health testing for each parent. Betty Brown, owner of Donnchada, is best reached by phone that by web site. Her phone number is 713-305-0120. The web site is donnchada.com. She is located northwest of Houston.
 

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Peggy bites at her docked tail a lot. We met a poodle the other day who does the same thing. I suspect the procedure wasn't done properly and has resulted in "phantom limb" pain or irritation.

Go with an experienced breeder and I doubt this will be an issue.
 

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Peggy, I think you are right. There is a correct way to dock that involves pushing the skin back toward the body and cutting between vertebrae. I have never, ever, had a poodle that I docked using those precautions end up with a sensitive tail.
 

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Peggy bites at her docked tail a lot. We met a poodle the other day who does the same thing. I suspect the procedure wasn't done properly and has resulted in "phantom limb" pain or irritation.

Go with an experienced breeder and I doubt this will be an issue.
I have wondered about this. Misha played with his tail a whole lot when he was young. I assumed it was because he was left in his pen for multiple hours and just got bored. But he stopped after a while when I put some bitter spray on it to discourage it. They may have memory of it itching as it healed, and that may create a bit of a habit. But I don't think he has any real phantom limb feelings.
 
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