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Discussion Starter #1
Well because dogs use their bodies to tell many things to each other and one of them is who is the more dominante pack member. A dog will use it's body to pin another dog into submission so a dog that won't allow this behavior from a pack member is not allowing it due to dominance. This article has a lot of information regarding children and dog bites and there are a few pictures here that show exactly what I'm talking about. These stupid owners allowed a mastiff to completely dominate their baby by getting on top of it and laying on it and took pictures of it. So in the reverse, if they child is on top of the dog, the child is the more dominante pack member.

****WARNING**** There are dog bite pictures in this article and they are all children so be forwarned before you open this link.

http://leerburg.com/kidbites.htm
 

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If you read through enough of the link you posted, the guy doesn't say that dogs should be expected to put up with everything a kid does. In at least two of the writeups (I didn't go through all of them) the guy chastised the owner for putting a dog into a situation where it could reasonably be expected to react badly to a child's actions.

I guess, to put it in dominance terms, I think that leadership should be earned, not expected as a right. That includes kids. They should be expected to earn their pack dominance by learning how to be kind, wise, and effective leaders. I'm not quite sure whether using your dog as a pillow constitutes wise leadership. Then again, the same could probably be said of dressing your dog up in funny clothes like William Wegman does.
 

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I love the leerburg website (and his leather leashes) while I agree with some of it I disagree with a lot of his methods as well.

For the most part about establishing pack structure and such I think it can be very important. Him and Cesar seem to have a lot in common and while i'm sure they don't agree on everything they both seem to base everything on pack structure.

I have a few of the leerburg DVDs.. the e-collar DVD, pack structure and the puppy DVD and all were very helpful!

He has a ton of free ebooks as well that have all been really useful.
 

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8. NEVER RUN away from a dog that is chasing you. STOP, STAND STILL, REMAIN CALM, ARMS AT YOUR SIDES, be quiet and DO NOT SCREAM. Walk away SLOWLY FACING THE DOG BUT NOT STARING AT its eyes.
Easier said than done, especially for a child. Trust me, been there and done that.
 

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I read through some more of the web page. Thank you for the link, Kpoos. It's very informative, and I've bookmarked it.

I think his whole outlook on dog training is filtered through his experience as a police dog trainer. Some dog breeds and types are simply more forgiving of owner error than others. German Shepherds, Malinois, and the other kinds of dogs used for police work can get dangerously aggressive if mishandled. In contrast, when was the last time you heard of a couple of escaped beagles or bassett hounds mauling a child? Probably never. The normal hound way of giving his owner the finger is to run off into the countryside and sniff delicious smells for the next 18 hours. So, keep in mind that he comes from a background of working with aggressive breeds, and his protection work involves managing and appropriately redirecting the aggression.

Here are some interesting quotes I've lifted from his website:
The question often comes up by new pet owners about how to teach the new dog that the small child is a higher rank in the family pack.

My answer is that you don’t try do that. As pack leader you simply establish a rule that the dog is not allowed near the young child, and if it breaks that rule it suffers serious consequences.
I don't believe your dog is ... one of those dogs who is looking for trouble. I think he doesn't like kids in his space, and he has been put in positions where he didn't feel like you would protect him so he took it upon himself to do it... Biting kids is a major problem, but one that can be managed if you look at it from all angles. Obedience training and management.

People underestimate how much our dogs look to us for protection from things that make them uncomfortable.
If you own any dog, but especially a dog that has had the smallest amount of aggression or protection training it is your moral and legal obligation to make sure that you do everything possible to insure that your dog is never in a situation where it could bite a child.
I have a philosophy of having to fight with my dog over a dominance issue. That is I never pick a fight with a dog that I will lose. If more people followed that line of thinking there would be a lot fewer dog bites in this country.
I'm assuming, based on these quotes, that he would not advocate letting your daughter lie on the dog and forcing the dog to consent (as you discussed in your other thread.) He'd keep the two separated instead. He'd put them both in the situation where it's easiest for the outcome to be good.
 

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I just wanted to say that i agree fully with Cowpony on her post, and i also agree with Locket and Cdnjennga on the other thread. I have to say that i am worried with how this might turn out. He is letting you know he isnt comfortable and you are completely ignoring him. Part of being a good "pack leader" is respecting your dog. He is respecting you and your daughter enough that he is giving clear warning signals and trying to walk away from the situation (which is a wonderful thing).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Just to ease your mind we aren't letting my daughter lay on him anymore. She feeds him with one of us right there, she pets on top of the head with one of us there and she stays above him (by not laying on the floor) by staying on the couch because the dogs aren't allowed and the rest we are adjusting and giving more exercise. He was a better dog before we allowed him more freedoms in the house but more than likely it's just the adjustment period with Mia being here.

As far as what dogs that Ed Fowley trains, what difference does that make? I mean a little chihuahua can latch onto a child's face and cause serious damage to a child. To think a smaller breed dog shouldn't be regarded with the same type of training, is ridiculous.
 

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As far as what dogs that Ed Fowley trains, what difference does that make? I mean a little chihuahua can latch onto a child's face and cause serious damage to a child. To think a smaller breed dog shouldn't be regarded with the same type of training, is ridiculous.
Thats true that little dogs can and do attack people more then others realized (because they rarely get reported, but that is another pet peeve of mine for another thread).
Some breeds though have naturally more dominant and "hard" personalities then others. I think poodles and say dutch shephards are not even in the same catagory on the domanince issue. Poodles are pretty fine to go with the flow and have been bred to have a more easy flow temperament. Dutchies though need constant supervision and control all the time. They are teh type where if you give an inch they will take a mile. I believe all breeds are not conisdered equal in these instances.
I know there are breeds out there that i personally dont think i could "handle". I consider myself to be pretty good with dog language and training, but some breeds are just too much for some people.
 

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I agree with everything you just said. I think though that people forget that dogs are dogs and while some are easier for families to work with they can and do act like dogs and need dog language instead of human emotion. I see that so often with little dogs and it bugs me.

I was in Petsmart the other day for food and this woman had her schnauzer on one of those cute little harnesses. Well this dog was barking and going nuts anytime someone went near them. She was standing in the middle of the isle looking at something and the dog was standing up on the end of the leash and yapping it's head off at me as I was walking by. I just looked at the dog and kept walking and gave it no attention at all. Well, it didn't like that because it had a very dominante personality obviously, and yapped it's head off until I turned the corner and another person came by. You could hear the dog bark at every single person she walked by because it echoed in the place. The woman did nothing. She didn't say a word to the dog, she didn't correct it on the leash, she just kept going on about her shopping and let it pull and buck and act like a wild dog. It just so happened that we were parked two cars down from them and it was jumping all over her barking and yapping inside the vehicle as well.

People that don't have control over their dogs, no matter what the size, are the people that wonder why their dog bit them or a family member or is trying to attack the child across the street.
 

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As far as what dogs that Ed Fowley trains, what difference does that make? I mean a little chihuahua can latch onto a child's face and cause serious damage to a child. To think a smaller breed dog shouldn't be regarded with the same type of training, is ridiculous
It's not the size of the dog, it's the kind of mischief the dog's breeding predisposes it towards. When training the dog, you should tailor the training with the breed's tendencies in mind.

For example, I'd be really really surprised to find a Newfoundland taking delight in chasing cars. Swimming, at every possible opportunity, yes. Even dragging me off a dock to go swimming if I hadn't trained it properly and didn't let go of the leash, yes. Crouching by the side of the road waiting to chase cars, no. In contrast, I would expect car chasing of herding dogs like border collies or Australian Shepherds. I'd also watch out for a tendency for a herding dog to run livestock. The sooner you are aware of a problem, the sooner you can nip it in the bud.

As another example, a lot of hounds have been bred to a) be fascinated with smells b) work cooperatively in a boisterous pack environment. That's the genetic heritage of the breed. Consequently, one of these dogs is more likely to express disobedience by running off after an interesting scent and is less likely to get offended and attack when its personal space has been invaded. If a bassett snapped at me, I'd consider it so unusual that I'd look for a physical cause like a sore back. That's not to say there aren't grumpy ill-tempered bassetts, and that these dogs shouldn't have a come-to-Jesus-and-sing-in-the-choir-session. It's that dominance aggression isn't normal for the breed, so I'd look deeper into the problem than just assuming bad training.

You had touched on the issue of badly behaved small dogs. Well, there are a lot of small dog breeds which are prone to aggression. A lot of the terriers, Chihuahuas, Schipperkes, etc. can be pretty dominant. The difference is, a six pound Chihuahua isn't physically capable of the same kind of damage as a sixty pound Staffordshire. That's why you don't see a whole lot of headlines about people mauled by Chihuahuas, and most of the incidents you do hear of involved people putting their faces within range of the dog. Yes, it's completely inappropriate and rude for a Chihuahua to latch onto someone's ankle. Realistically, however, an adult human is more likely to be hospitalized for injuries sustained tripping over a Chihuahua than being attacked by one.
 

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Any dog can bite, period. It doesn't matter if it's a German Shepherd, a pit bull or an adorable baby shih tzu. Any dog bite (imo) should be taken seriously!

I can't find it but somewhere on the shepherd forums a forum member was at the park doing some schutzhund training with her dogs and came across some lady who had a long haired chihuahua and went out to the park with her dog unleashed.

Well the dog was running around chasing and nipping at everones heels. The shepherd owner contacted animal control who came out explaining to her that her dog can't run around and bite people like that. She was trying to defend her dog by saying that the dog is small and that the bites aren't hard.

Anyway, she ended up getting fined for having her dog off leash.

The forum member caught a lot of it on video and posted it for our amusement but also to reinforce the fact that all aggression from a big dog or a small dog should be taken seriously.

You don't hear about killer basset hounds because people would much rather hear about the pit bull maulings of some neighborhood boy that always seem to pop up. It's a lot easier to jump on some "ban all pit bulls" bandwagon rather than golden retrievers or the neighborhood lassie dog (and collies sure can bite!!).

There have been instances of many different breeds seriously harming people not just shepherds or pits. I hated standard poodles for the longest time because I grew up next to someone who owned two very aggressive ones. It wasn't until I started dog grooming that I came to love the breed.

I think Ed Frawley's main point is that as a dog owner it is our duty and responsibility to do everything possible to keep a dog bite from occuring. Why PUT a child at risk, it's just not worth it. I think that's all he really wants people to understand.

If we all did our part to prevent dog bites from happening perhaps BSL wouldn't be such a threat.
 

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Excellent post Aidan. I posted this once, but I'm going to link it again.

http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/01/2009-dog-bite-fatalities-final-report.html

I believe it's important for every dog to be trained/socialized/managed responsibly not matter what it's size is. Way too many people let small dogs get away w/ horrid behavior b/c "they can't do much damage." That doesn't fly w/ me. I honestly think that attitude is why there are so many tiny tyrants.
 

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I guess I'm not making my point very clearly. I think Bigpoodleperson got it, but I'm not sure anyone else did.
The original question in this thread was "Why should a dog allow a child to lay on them," not "Should snarky little lapdogs be subject to the same behavior standards as other dogs?" KPoos offered a link to one particular dog trainer's web site. I pointed out two things 1) this trainer's postings did not, in fact, support the idea that it's ok for a kid to lie on a dog 2) This trainer specializes in highly aggressive large breeds, which might be coloring his assessment of the dangers.
KPoos then asked what difference breed makes. That's where I lost people to the snarky little dog tangent. The fact is, some dog breeds are inherently more dominant than average. Not necessarily every dog in the breed, but the bell curve is slid that direction. Some dog breeds are larger and more powerful than average. Combine the two, as in large shepherd breeds, and you are much more likely to get an aggressive AND dangerous dog.

(My opinion on the tangential question, whether snarky little dogs need to be trained, is yes. I don't appreciate being bitten by them even if the damage isn't lethal. I certainly don't think it's fair for an ill disciplined little dog to get hurt because it's owner didn't train it not to run under my car tires. )
 

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The fact that you think there are "highly aggressive large breeds" is where you're wrong. No such thing, especially when talking about working dogs. Working dogs have to be stable, period. You do make a good point in that a working dogs is a completely different animal than a pet. Most working dogs are way too much for the average pet owner to handle, not b/c they are aggressive but b/c they are dominant, have a high drive and very confident. Many police/military dogs are PTS soon after retirement b/c they can't adjust to life as a pet. It's about an individual dog's temperment, not size and breed. Many dogs wash out of working programs, despite their breed or their breeding.
 

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Quick true story.

I was admitted to the hospital very sick when I was 17 years old. I was in a room with an older woman. Her legs were wrapped up and splinted as with her arms. After a couple days I come to overhear her family talking with her. Apparently her dog, a small mixed, she had for 6 years turned on her and attacked her. She also had marks on her face - this woman cried terribly and it was not from the pain but that she could not believe what her dog did and the thought of no longer having him. She was a mess.

Small dogs can do serious damage if not trained properly or provoked. I agree way to many people treat small dogs like little babies and that back firess - and many are still under the impression that small dogs are not a threat - I say they are.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
My original point was that a dog should allow the behavior because in dog language using your body to pin another being down means you are controlling them. So my dog isn't allowing the behavior because he doesn't want to be dominated by the smallest person in the house. Now, after reading some of leerburg site, I've gone on and changed my approach with this thing and will handle it in a different matter but the issue is still the same.

I don't think that because Ed Frawley works in protection training that he is unqualified for advice on a poodle. I don't know why people want to separate a poodle personality into it's own catagory like it's not still a dog. A poodle can dominate a person or a household no matter if it's a toy, miniature, or standard. I've seen a standard poodle bite it's handler at a dog show. These are supposed to be trained, top knotch dogs, yet it bit her repeatedly. I think there are dogs that need a firm hand to own. I think that there are dogs that need experienced dog owners and someone that is very dominate and firm as a leader but that could be the mutt at your local humane society or even a poodle. It's not breed specific in my opinion but I do agree that some breeds are wired differently and not for the average dog owner. I also think that even within those breeds you've got dogs that are submissive and don't bother to try to take over because they are happy being the lowest member of their pack. I watched a Cesar Millan episode where a Yorkie bit the owner, the owner's daughter, and Cesar because the owner treated the dog like a baby. It boiled down to the dog doing what the dog wanted to do and being in charge of all situations and the owner putting the dog over her own child.
 

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I understand why a dog should submit to a child, I'm just not clear why a parent should let it happen and I guess you asked yourself the same thing.

I don't think Poodles should be singled out anymore than any other breed, but working dogs* and pets are two different creatures. Working dogs are bred w/ completely different goals in mind. 99% of pet homes aren't capable of dealing w/ a working dog. Even K-9 handlers often have trouble dealing w/ their partners after they retire. Most K-9s are kept kenneled when off duty, they aren't family dogs. They don't respect the spouse/children in the home and often fight w/ the family dogs. I haven't checked out that trainer but if he is using a career as a working dog trainer as a credential to train pets, I would take his advice w/ a grain of salt. Like I've said before, I personally don't like one size fits all training.

*When I say working dog, I mean police and military work.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
He trains in schutzhund which I know is in protection and not every dog that trains in schutzhund is a dog that does police or military work. Like you said not all dogs can pass for working dogs and many fail for one reason or another. I don't think he's offering advice from that perspective. I think he's helping to train owners to understand pack mentality.
 

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I think it is always important to know someone's background & understand the advice they are giving. Everyone looks at things they know best and form a certain point of view. If you happen to be in banking, police, a priest etc. They see things from that view.

Below is another perspective on children ( or new born in this case) & dogs.

The Humane Society of the United States
Introducing Your Pet and New Baby. Learn to live with your pet in harmony...
http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/resources/tips/pets_babies.html

Its like raising children, some people beat them, some don't. Either you teach your dog you are dominate or you are dominate... there a difference.
 

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I tend to think of the pack theory as incorrect, or over used.

There are a few corrections that are used in pack theory that can work, such as a distracting 'touch', but the nonsense of throwing an alpha dog to the floor is too much of a 'quick fix' and doesn't get to the root of the problem. The dog needs to learn that it is better to NOT do something rather than be punishied for DOING IT.

Which brings me on to the point, that my mini poodle, Harley, who is 9months(ish) old, went to visit my dad, who has a 4 year old son. Now he is obsessed by dogs, and wouldnt' leave him alone, no matter how hard we told him to.
He would drag harley around by the neck, pushing and pulling him whereever he wanted him to go.
No I wouldnt say that Michael wa sbeing 'dominant', or Harley was being made to be submissive, but rather he was having an unpleasant experience.
Anyway...
Your dog has the option of whether or not to allow a child to lay on them, but.. its whether it knows how to remove the child appropriately that is the question.

A dog would obviously need a slowly built up amount of time with a child if they're not brought up with them...
Teaching a dog that its okay for a child to lay NEAR them , or sit next to them is a really great starting point.
If you see a dog is uncomfortable, call the dog away. With repetition, the dog will leanr an appropriate response to the uncomfortable feeling is to go to you or.. to just walk away.

Any dog that is 'balanced'/sound in temperament would be fine with a dog lying on it.
INCLUDING small dogs, or 'power' breeds i.e. GSDs ..

I actually have no idea whether that was what you were aiming for in this thread (my memory is atrocious...) but thats my two cents :)
 
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