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Discussion Starter #1
A friend of mine shared this on Facebook and I found it so well written I am copying it here:

Jennifer Laine Graves
❤Here’s a little education for my friends spending thousands of dollars... some $5,000 or more on “Doodles”. All three of these dogs look like what you want right? A non-shedding, intelligent, trainable pet that looks like a teddy bear & without the “fancy poodle” look. Guess what my friends... these 3 dogs are poodles ... purebred, standard poodles with a teddy bear cut.
?Intelligence=poodle
?Non Shedding = poodle
?Easy to train = poodle
?Teddy bear Cut = Groomer
?You are spending 5 times the price for a mixed breed dog that comes with no papers, typically no genetic testing & zero knowledge of the genetic history. Like many things in life, people found a way to make a quick dollar. Please realize that doodles are popping up in rescues in crazy amounts due to unforeseen behaviors.
⭐Wally Conran was the first to breed a doodle and to quote his thoughts "I opened a Pandora's box, that's what I did. I released a Frankenstein. So many people are just breeding for the money. So many of these dogs have physical problems, and a lot of them are just crazy.”
?Just because someone stuck a high price tag on the product, doesn’t mean the product is worth the price.
?EDITED TO ADD: Buyers also don’t realize the slim chance that the puppy will not shed, or may not get the good behavior/intelligence of a standard. Wally Conran tested a litter of 10 doodles, 3 were non shedding.
#WhyDoodleWhenYouCanPoodle
$1000 or $5000 ??*♀ #StopTakingAdvantageOfPeoplesIgnorance
 

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Couldn'y agtrr more Moni! I hope that piece spreads far and wide.
 
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well,I nearly went there,I will admit. There is a kennel near upstate NY that has "Australian Labradoodles" , purebred :ahhhhh:..why? I wanted brown,and a non-fading brown. Thankfully, I have dog buddies w/sense:adore:pointed out that article to me,and steered me to longtime friend and breeder of standards. Voila, Otter! (I just have to plan on "lady Clairol-ing" him some day..Kidding!)

On the other side,there is a local standard breeder(not mine) who now advertises "Doodle Your Poodle"..the first couple who pre-pay and choose this option will have undocked,no dewclaw removal. (though what removing dewclaws has to do with it ,I am unsure:ahhhhh:) (Catherine,FYI, same city as Stacey,so why would she not buy locally..things that make you go "Hmmm", which was another reason for my hesitation) Otter has some of the same relatives as their foundation stock,so I still have the benefits from them.
 

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I was playfully accused of being a breed snob by a close friend who has never owned a dog. She went on and on about a doodle she met and I had to explain that it was actually a cross and a trend that has made it easier for millers and BYB’s to make a buck. I have no doubt they can be cute and clever. Maybe non shedding and hypoallergenic, too. I’m also in the club that if you paid MORE for a poodle cross than a well bred poodle or a nice Golden Retriever or whatever the cross du jour is, please don’t brag to me about that. I will have opinions, even if your dog is adorbs:)
 

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Martha I saw Stacey over the weekend. She mentioned having spoken to her breeder recently, sounds like Mick will have a puppy to contend with in the not too distant future. Also Lee Ann just got a puppy. She brought him to Binghamton to socialize. He sat on 50 peoples laps easily in just two days! Ian Dunbar would have been proud, tons of people all sorts of dogs, all sorts of noises at just 12 weeks old. Needless to say his feet never touched the ground or the floor, but he will be bomb proof on so many things for the rest of his life for the time spent at the trial.


Oh and that should say agree above, not agtrr (misplaced my fingers on the keyboard I guess).
 
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Excellent post.

I never know what to say to people when they proudly tell me they have a doodle.

One lady in class in a very snooty voice said she had an Australian Doodle. So I made a snarky comment, but in a voice that didn’t sound snarky about how wonderful her dog came all the way from Australia. She had to explain to dummy me that it was bred in the USA. Then she added it was mixed with not only a poodle and golden but also a curly coat retriever to get a curlier coat. Oh boy. So it’s not Australian it American and it’s a three way mix not a doodle mix. So silly and she paid big bucks.
 

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I do believe that people do what they want to do, and if they fall in love with the fluffy, poodley look in mixed-poodles, they'll get one, and they have and will continue doing so in droves. For those considering this, I won't even bother trying to talk you out of this; instead, I'll present you with must-have information regardless of what you choose to do.

The general public is not familiar with how good breeding practices increase the odds of having a healthy poodle (or poodle-mix). A good breeder will have tested their poodle (or other dogs) thru DNA testing and only breed those who are clear of inheritable conditions, along with some other tests such as an xray of the parents to rule out hip dysplasia. And they'll have the original paperwork and online account at a lab to prove it.

For the PF visitor who is curious about how to select a healthy dog of any breed whether its a pure poodle or poodle mix, Paw Print Genetics lists the testable genetic diseases of each dog breed with a simple saliva swab.

Go to their site and type in the breed of the dog(s) and you'll get an idea of the gamble you'll be taking with buying a puppy from a breeder who have not tested the sire and dam. Below are some popular poodle-mix combinations with the links bold font that the site also tests for, and it's grim when one considers the wheel of misfortune an untested puppy can end up with due to reckless breeding.

Toy, Miniature, or Standard Poodle
Labrador
Labradoodle
Golden Retriever
Golden Doodle
Maltese
Maltipoo
Cocker Spaniel
Cockapoo
Schnauzer
Schnoodle
Australian Shepard
Aussiedoodle
Bernese Mountain Dog
Bernedoodle
English Sheepdog
Sheepadoodle

Some combinations are not listed, such as the Shihpoo (Shih Tzu-Poodle mix), so you'd want to run tests for the toy poodle and the shih tzu).

And note, there are no genetic tests to identify a cancer gene. We can only go on the stats of a breed's longevity.


Life Expectancy, Cancer, and other Genetic Diseases

There's no getting around it: many mix-breed poodles are cute and smart, but there may be a high price to pay. Some poodle combinations will have a greater chance of developing cancer or eye problems and having shorter lives than a pure poodle.

For example, a Poodle - Bernese Mountain Dog puppy is just beautiful, at least to me. If I were much younger and raising my then-young kids, and didn't know a thing about BMD's or testing, I'd be oohing and ahhing over one of those adorable fluffy puppies as they look like a fun and pretty family dog.

That's a lot of "if's". However, I do know the problems: the lifespan of a BMD usually ranges from 6 to 8 years. Nearly 50% pass away from canine cancer. This is a much higher percentage than dogs as a whole; it is typically closer to a 27% average of all dogs that pass from cancer. Hereditary eye diseases, arthritis, hip dysplasia, and cruciate ligament rupture. It is important to know that issues like this can start younger in a Bernese Mountain Dog, such as the onset of arthritis at even 4 years of age. (link). Thus a poodle-BMD mix is a real roll of the dice and not a gamble I'd ever make, no matter how cute.

The Golden Doodle is another cute combination. However, Golden Retrievers have extremely high cancer rates (link). About 57 percent of females and 66 percent of males will die from this; the two most common types of cancer in this breed are hemangiosarcoma and lymphoma. It's so common that the GR Forum has an entire section on this here. Anyone thinking of getting a GR or Golden Doodle would do well to read the dozens of pages of nearly 800 threads with 30,000+ posts of GR owners grieving over their dog's cancer, the medical expenses, and eventual loss of their dog.

The Labradoodle. These puppies can inherit a shocking number 11 possible genetic diseases if neither the lab or poodle were tested and cleared before being bred. See those here. Add on hip dysplasia, etc, and the owner can end up with a very sick Labradoodle.

On the other hand, some breeds have long lives, such as the Maltese and the Yorkshire - but like every breed, they need to be genetically tested to rule out inherited conditions, which many casual, backyard breeders or puppy mills do not do!

Note, the life expectancy of poodle is better than many dogs. While all dogs can get cancer, that's not a big issue in most poodles:

~Toy & Miniature Poodle - The median lifespan is 15 years, with a range of 14 to 16 considered normal
~Standard Poodle - The median lifespan for is 12 years, with a range of 11 to 13 considered normal

Some poodles exceed the median lifespan, particularly if they come from good lines of longevity, are cleared of genetic diseases, and have been fed healthy diets among other things.

While I'm not a proponent of mixing breeds, to keep this discussion honest, keep in mind there are no health guarantees with any breed just as there are none with humans. There are members who did everything right, i.e., selected a pup from a great breeder, great generaltional pedigree, health tested clear, etc, and still end up with a poodle that has medical issues of some sort. The opposite is true: some members have gotten their poodle from a pet shop or the newspaper, who have no health or temperament problems. However, the odds are much, much greater for a genetically healthy poodle, however, if it came from someone who does good breeding practices.

More problems arise when breeders mix a poodle with another breed, as those puppies will inherit the good and bad of both - including longevity. A pup may be lucky and have the long life from the poodle side of the family and no cancer, but maybe not. Or, if both the sire and dam have the genes for a common eye disease, all the puppies will either be carriers or will develop blindness at a young age. Depending on the mix, you could literally end up with a blind, arthritic 4 year old dog with cancer.

These are the things a potential puppy buyer can know regardless of the poodle or poodle-mix they select. Lotsa luck finding a designer dog breeder who did DNA testing. I've read a few are starting to do this, but it's not something that's caught on with the majority.

Paw Print Genetics lab has a half-price sale thru July. They, like other labs, run 40% to 50% sales fairly often. There are other labs that test, but as Sheila Schultz who developed some of the genetic tests personally told me long ago, not all labs are equal. Considering how much profit designer breeders or even poodle breeders earn per litter, not doing basic DNA testing is incredibly irresponsible bordering on criminal, so buyer beware.
 

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Great post Vita.. Many of my friends are "dog" people, so of course we talk dogs. My one friend has had goldens forever. The two she has now, well had now, both had issues, 1. has had two MCT's removed and the dog is 8 years old. The 2nd, just under 7 years she lost this past week. The 2nd had gone through (nose bleeds) and growths so had
CT, rhinoscopy and biopsies performed l in an effort to diagnose her nasal issue. This was her third time around . Unfortunately she did not come out of the anesthesia. Both these dogs are in the Morris Foundation studies. It is very very sad. Then I posted about the doodle another friend has, not yet 5 years old..he has lymphoma. He had round one of a very strong dose of chemo treatment but it didn't budge the cancer and he is on his 2nd round as I speak. Fortunately both these families are financially able to care for their dogs to the highest degree. Ironically they all come from the same breeder. This breeder has always had the nicest goldnens. but has gone into doodle breeding I think its more about the almighty $$. They say they health test but I bet its only for hip dysplasia. I know the one let the breeder know of their doodles diagnosis, and the breeders reply was Oh I am so sorry. Her mom and the other family[s son also have doodles from this breeder too, so far all healthy but all under 3 years. I also have a neighbor with a golden from this breeder and he is healthy at 7 years. Its a big business. You know you put a lot of time and $ into any dog you get, and when you finally have them to a point when they are well trained and have become a strong member of your family, these health issues rise. It is best in my opinion if you bring a pet into your home the will be a family member its pst you do your homework and buy from a breeder that gives you the best chance at having a healthy dog.
 

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...Its a big business. You know you put a lot of time and $ into any dog you get, and when you finally have them to a point when they are well trained and have become a strong member of your family, these health issues rise...
Thanks, Mufar, and for your examples and that point. I didn't even get into body structure of a mixed breed poodle. While the fluffiness is cute, and the Internet is filled with cuteness, more than a few are strangely disproportioned. Heads too big/small, backs and/or legs too long/short, making for a funny-looking dog. We've even seen this "teacup" poodles - technically there is no such thing. Those breeders strived to make tiny version of a toy. Instead most of the ones I've seen have very short legs (some of the Japanese toys may be an exception).

We've also seen this attempt in fake Klein poodles where a standard and a miniature are bred. Oh it's a smaller version of a poodle, but the cost is often a big head on a smaller body. Many people don't care about that either, they fall in love with a particular puppy or dog, no matter what, and if that's you, who am I say you shouldn't?

Consider this:

Moni on Post 1 has the photo of what can be done with a poodle via grooming. That's a real poodle with a teddybear cut but it has that casual doodle look that so many people who are drawn to doodles like.


For those thinking of getting a doodle or designer mixed poodle, here's a tip: a poodle owner can have a great deal of fun and lots of flexibility in designing their dog if they don't want a classic poodle look, such as these:


Sachii, my toy poodle's "before" photo, very doodle-looking unshaved face:



Sachii, face trim, looking like a mop, not too much like that classic poodle look that doodle lovers prefer:


Sachii, with a classic poodle look in a summer cut:


So above we have the same poodle with a variety of looks can go back and forth in styles. I can also dye him if I ever decide to go there.


Then there are other clips. This one is a pony cut, one of my favorites:


Here's one with a really good teddy bear cut:


Here's a lovely clip and lightly dyed poodle of her dog, Vogue, by one of our members, ItzaClip. She's a fantastic professional groomer who made cover of a grooming magazine in 2018:



So if those drawn to doodles and designer mixed poodles still want one, hopefully you'll remember to insist to the breeder that you want to see paperwork and their online account proving that both the sire and dam are genetically cleared for inheritable diseases. The ads that say "healthy, has shots" is just too basic and means nothing when it comes to the health of the dog's DNA. Think of DNA as a roadmap to which health conditions are in store for that dog later, as described in Post 8.

The other thing you now know is that a poodle can have many, many looks that are very pleasing and fit what you want your dog to look like.
 

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When I first started looking for my next dog, I was looking at golden doodles and labradoodles, based on a lot of people online saying how great they were. When I did some research, I found that the original doodles were bred in an attempt to get a hypo-allergenic service dog. But they found that the original crosses would not be reliably non-shedding, so they took that generation and then bred them again with poodles, to get a 75% poodle mix.

I saw that the trend was to keep adding more and more "doodle" to the equation, so I wondered, what is the other breed really contributing here? Why not just get a poodle?!?! My black standard puppy is 3 weeks old now and should be coming home around the end of August :)
 

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One day a few years ago my BIL brought home a Jackdoodle, or something. Another dog for my sister to take care of. Supposedly 1/2 toy poodle and 1/2 Jack Russell Terrier. Know anything about JRT's? Polar opposites. Fortunately, the dog got the poodle personality and the poodle coat. Good dog. BIL is now gone, dog still with my sister. Good choice.
 

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Eric, that was me too. I thought about doodles but eventually came to my senses and decided on a standard poodle (which I am currently waiting for).

One of the things that I kept seeing that scared me quite a bit in the poodle community was grooming. I didn't see any of that in the doodle info/groups. I knew I'd have to groom a doodle and I've had non-shed breeds before (Havanese) but sometimes the poodle people made me think that owning a poodle was like owning a lamborghini - I couldn't take care of it and I couldn't afford it.

I saw a few posts here and there that eased my mind and realized that yeah, the standard poodle was really the dog I wanted. I've even come to enjoy and appreciate the wide variety of clips and do's on the dogs.
 

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BowAndArrow some of the messiest dogs I've seen were poorly groomed doodles. Around here many people seem to let them turn into matted messes and just shave them nekkid a couple of times a year. Maybe that's why doodle forums don't have a lot of discussions on grooming.
 

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SO many people wanted me to get a doodle when I got Dobby. I had been debating between a golden and a poodle so everyone kept saying "get a doodle!".

I ignored them, and bought Dobby, who turned 2 in April. Once my senior schnauzer mix passed, I wanted to get another dog, but really didn't want to do a puppy. My best friend is director of operations at an animal shelter, and called me when a doodle was owner surrendered for having chronic diarrhea. She is a 75%/25% standard poodle/golden, bought from some "breeder" fall of 2018. (I have all her "breeder" paperwork, it blows my mind, but whatever.) The shelter quickly figured out her diarrhea issue, so I adopted her and brought her home.

First, let me say, she is a wonderful dog. I wouldn't have adopted her if she was a nut case. She has a great temperament, but absolutely no manners. According to her previous owners, she spent significant time in her too small kennel, mostly being ignored by the family. The only positive is that she is, in fact, housebroken.

Compare her to Dobby, who has been trained and socialized since he was 8 weeks old, has manners, is bouncy and full of energy, but a very good boy.

However, people are immediately drawn to Trixie because they recognize she is a doodle. Even though she is terrible on leash, jumps on people, and is mouthy. People are so prejudiced against poodles, for whatever reason, that even though Dobby is sitting nicely on leash he gets ignored. It completely blows my mind!

People, both my family and strangers, just LOVE that 25% golden. :argh:
 

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My girlfriend has a golden and when he passes she is set on a goldendoodle. She just really wants another of her dog that doesn't shed and she's thinking she'll get that with a goldendoodle.

So I think most people think (as I used to) that you can get your chosen breed without shedding. I can relate. I love our GSD but I can't have 2 big shedders in the house, it would drive me nuts. There is in fact a shepadoodle (German Shepherd/poodle) breeder near us.
 

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SO many people wanted me to get a doodle when I got Dobby. I had been debating between a golden and a poodle so everyone kept saying "get a doodle!".

I ignored them, and bought Dobby, who turned 2 in April. Once my senior schnauzer mix passed, I wanted to get another dog, but really didn't want to do a puppy. My best friend is director of operations at an animal shelter, and called me when a doodle was owner surrendered for having chronic diarrhea. She is a 75%/25% standard poodle/golden, bought from some "breeder" fall of 2018. (I have all her "breeder" paperwork, it blows my mind, but whatever.) The shelter quickly figured out her diarrhea issue, so I adopted her and brought her home.

First, let me say, she is a wonderful dog. I wouldn't have adopted her if she was a nut case. She has a great temperament, but absolutely no manners. According to her previous owners, she spent significant time in her too small kennel, mostly being ignored by the family. The only positive is that she is, in fact, housebroken.

Compare her to Dobby, who has been trained and socialized since he was 8 weeks old, has manners, is bouncy and full of energy, but a very good boy.

However, people are immediately drawn to Trixie because they recognize she is a doodle. Even though she is terrible on leash, jumps on people, and is mouthy. People are so prejudiced against poodles, for whatever reason, that even though Dobby is sitting nicely on leash he gets ignored. It completely blows my mind!

People, both my family and strangers, just LOVE that 25% golden. :argh:
They look so similar, you could probably put them in the same haircut and nobody would know which was the doodle! Though I personally love to see a clean face.
 

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I'm taking classes with my spoo Zuzu. She just turned one year old this week.

Anyway, she is somewhat dog reactive, not towards all dogs. I've also referred to her as dog selective. We are working hard to change her level of reactivity.

Our most recent class was Beyond Basics. So it's for dogs that have completed Basic Obedience. We passed that class with the top score and Zuzu was the class valedictorian. Dogs should understand wait, stay and loose leash walking to be in the Beyond Basics class. I'm proud to say that my girl mastered all of training, but we had a very hard time with her reactivity due to a doodle that was in class with us. The doodle had little self/impulse control & the owner wasn't effective in getting her to listen. She was pulling towards my dog, doing a lot of demand barking in general & causing a ruckus. The instructor was great & kept having the owner regain control but Zuzu was worried and didn't want anything to do with her. She did react a few times towards the doodle. I heard two of the other class participants stating that my dog had a bad temperament because she is a purebred poodle & that doodles are so much nicer.

Zuzu loves people, is brilliant, and is friends with a few dogs. She just doesn't "suffer fools gladly".

I'm very dog savvy, having had German Shepherds, Giant Schnauzers and Standard Poodles. To say that I almost bit my tongue off to keep from telling these folks off is an understatement.

People really believe this crap about temperament. I have met a ton of doodles & while they can be very sweet most aren't well trained. I think that's because in general the people that buy them are first time owners, not dog savvy, and think everything their giant teddy bear does is cute.
 

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We have had two Spoos and two golden doodles. I can understand why some people would doodle instead of poodle: size and temperament. Health and grooming are about the same. Neither of our goldendoodles shed.
I wanted a 60 lb spoo for balance assist and was told that since reputable Spoo breeders were breeding down in size, it would be hard to get one that size with good conformation. I was told that maybe I should consider another breed. Our goldendoodles have been 65-75 lb.
Our Spoos have been relatively stress intolerant and reactive. Our one yr old is timid and couldn't tolerate puppy class. Our 11 yr old doesn't eat when stressed and has flares of vomiting and bloody diarrhea when she doesn't eat. Both have separation anxiety. Our goldendoodles have been silly goofy clowns, easy to train. Rudi was our first Spoo's babysitter, since he could keep her calmed down.
Health wise, one goldendoodle died at 7 years from jaw sarcoma and the other at 12.5 yrs from Cushings disease. Rudi was neutered young and had bilateral hip surgery for hip dysplasia. We waited until 12 mos to neuter our Spoo puppy. Our 11 yo Spoo developed antibiotic sensitive enteritis at 3 yrs, and has been off and on meds her whole life. She had two plasmacytomas removed last winter -- one from her mouth and the other from her leg. Our one-year old Spoo Lewis is physically healthy.
There are reputable breeders and puppy mill breeders of both Spoos and goldendoodles. There are goldendoodle breeders where parents are AKC registered and have OFA information available.
 
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