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Jessie came to me at 18 months old from a home that fed her lots of "people" food and home cooked meals. Unlike many on this forum, I want my pets to be on commercially available food. Canned is what she will eat reliably. I've tried transitioning Jessie to kibble 3 times so far. She's quite picky- most kibble she won't accept as "treats" fed one piece at a time by hand. Once I find a kibble she will reliably take as a treat, I try to slowly transition her to it over the course of 2 weeks. Usually by the time the kibble starts being greater by volume than the canned food, she starts hesitating to eat meals. I stay firm. By the time it's 100% kibble, she'll start skipping meals and then hunger puking begins. Then it's a struggle to get her to eat again because she doesn't feel well. The problem is if she ever gets diarrhea and I have to go back to chicken/rice or canned food, the struggle to get her back on kibble starts all over again.
Wow. So maybe it isn't about the quality of her poop. It really sounds like you are in a real struggle over her food.

From my reading most people on this forum do feed kibble and Purina Pro Plan seems to be very popular.

Are you suspecting that her dry food avoidance is a behavior issue?

I'm assuming the chicken and rice resolves her poop issue since you describe the vicious cycle you are in - ends up there.

She is letting you know the only way that she can that she would rather puke than eat that food.
She is at your mercy and perhaps that's not a good thing.

I am sorry, I honestly do not mean to sound judgmental, I believe people should do what make them happy and what works best for them
regardless of what anyone else thinks. But if you are willing to push a dog to a state where you "stand firm" when she hunger strikes and
allow her system to become compromised into "hunger puking" before feeding her what she is happy to eat, she might not be a good fit for your household.

This really upset me, sorry if I am emotional about it.
 

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Thank you Townferret. I too have been upset and was not brave enough to say what you did. But I will briefly tell my story:

At one time I had wanted my Spoo to be on kibble also. Much easier, my Vet didn't approve of raw feeding or even home cooked, etc.

But my Spoo did the same thing as you are describing. Everything that went in came out both ends. He lost about 1/3 of his body weight, and eventually cost me over 2K with him on IV fluids staying at the Vets. $1,500 worth of blood work plus vet bills, etc. Vet prescribed kibble and canned, every expensive kibble you can imagine. He totally quit eating and was wasting away. And he was my Service Dog. I literally thought I would lose him. They could not find anything medically wrong with him.

I finally called his breeder and she told me she had raised his lineage back 3 generations on raw food, My vet did not agree, but I decided to follow the breeders advice instead. I tried feeding him a human grade raw bone in chicken thigh, making absolutely sure it didn't have any additives or solution. He ate it and it stayed down. No more throwing up, no more diarrhea.

I then went to feeding him totally raw. It took over 2 months for him to gain back his body weight. That was 8 years ago. He is 11 and in great shape. Last month I visited a friend that free feeds kibble. He was so excited and ate it. About an hour later it was all over her new carpet. I watch really carefully when visiting people and put any kibble on the counter. Any treats are only single ingredient.

This morning he had a raw pork chop, some pineapple and strawberries, and a sardine. Last night he had a chicken leg quarter, cooked sweet potato and steamed broccoli, plus kefir with phytoplankton mixed in.
 

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I wish people also posted how many times their dogs poo in a day! I’m curious and also wondering if my girl is abnormal going once every 20-30 hours. The consistency is usually a 4 and is decently sized.

i feed her Fromm gold puppy kibble, often topped with 15-20 calories worth of cottage cheese twice a day.

She gets zukes mini training treats cut into smaller pieces and a once daily Pure vita glucosamine chondroitin treat based on her weight.

For about 4 days in a row I recently gave her a Purina dentalife chew, and it constipated her so I stopped them.

As far as protein, I don’t think it has much affect on the poop, unless you’re drastically altering something else in the diet in order to consume high amounts of protein. Not that that’s what you’re thinking of doing! If more protein is consumed than what the body can use, it is eliminated through the kidneys. I’m not 100% sure if that’s how dogs bodies process it, but that’s how humans do.
Jessie came to me at 18 months old from a home that fed her lots of "people" food and home cooked meals. Unlike many on this forum, I want my pets to be on commercially available food. Canned is what she will eat reliably. I've tried transitioning Jessie to kibble 3 times so far. She's quite picky- most kibble she won't accept as "treats" fed one piece at a time by hand. Once I find a kibble she will reliably take as a treat, I try to slowly transition her to it over the course of 2 weeks. Usually by the time the kibble starts being greater by volume than the canned food, she starts hesitating to eat meals. I stay firm. By the time it's 100% kibble, she'll start skipping meals and then hunger puking begins. Then it's a struggle to get her to eat again because she doesn't feel well. The problem is if she ever gets diarrhea and I have to go back to chicken/rice or canned food, the struggle to get her back on kibble starts all over again.


This is just when eating canned food- I'm guessing it hydrates her enough by itself. She drinks more when it's hot outside or in those rare instances where she's eating kibble. Her former owner said her dogs never drank enough and she used to pour water in their mouths from a bottle when it was hot outside.
Wow. So maybe it isn't about the quality of her poop. It really sounds like you are in a real struggle over her food.

From my reading most people on this forum do feed kibble and Purina Pro Plan seems to be very popular.

Are you suspecting that her dry food avoidance is a behavior issue?

I'm assuming the chicken and rice resolves her poop issue since you describe the vicious cycle you are in - ends up there.

She is letting you know the only way that she can that she would rather puke than eat that food.
She is at your mercy and perhaps that's not a good thing.

I am sorry, I honestly do not mean to sound judgmental, I believe people should do what make them happy and what works best for them
regardless of what anyone else thinks. But if you are willing to push a dog to a state where you "stand firm" when she hunger strikes and
allow her system to become compromised into "hunger puking" before feeding her what she is happy to eat, she might not be a good fit for your household.

This really upset me, sorry if I am emotional about it.
Town Ferret, I am with you. Dogs are our furry children children & I too feel for them. They can’t talk, so they choose hunger over being forced to eat what doesn’t agree with them or causes discomfort.
Based on stated above, the dog was adopted at 18 months. The previous owner volunteered that her dogs didn’t drink much. Did she let them out frequent enough or they had to hold it in for many hours? If dog had been fed certain foods until 18 months, when psychologically & physically dog pretty much formed, then forcing it to move to commercial food, especially dry kibble, just because the owner doesn’t like the look of poop, is cruel.
It is one thing, when there is a concern about dog’s well being and another, forcing pretty much grown dog to change, based on matching it’s poop with Bristol scale (this scale is meant for humans). Her body got used to function certain way. If you are truly concerned, discuss with your vet thehealth problems, you perceive. However, if your only concern is matching dog’s poop to the specific number on a scale, PLEASE, reconsider. You are forcing your perception on dog’s physiology...
Maybe it is NOT a good fit between you & the dog.
 

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Thanks for your concerns. If you had read the full thread you would know that I'm feeding Jessie canned food that she does like very much and eats reliably because of her adverse reaction to kibble. I was attempting to describe why I don't feed her kibble in response to a direct question because I always get people recommending kibble over canned.

Since I got her as an adult and she is my first dog, I'm simply trying to use all indicators at my disposal to make sure the food I have her on agrees with her. Poo is just one of those indicators. And yes, I do believe the kibble aversion is a behavoiral problem, not a physical one, as does my vet. However, I'm not willing to continue trying to feed her food she doesn't like, especially since she'll skip meals and get sick.

Not everyone agrees that homemade foods are as good as commercial diets. I am one of those people, as is literally every vet I've spoken with in the 10 states I've lived in. I don't appreciate being thrown under the bus so quickly by other members of this forum.
 

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Apologies Zesti !
I am so glad you are doing canned if that is what agrees with your beloved Jessie.

Maybe what has been written in concern will be useful to someone else reading this thread who needs the information.

I was surprised to read by someone that the poop chart was intended for humans.
 

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Thank you Townferret. I too have been upset and was not brave enough to say what you did. But I will briefly tell my story:

At one time I had wanted my Spoo to be on kibble also. Much easier, my Vet didn't approve of raw feeding or even home cooked, etc.

But my Spoo did the same thing as you are describing. Everything that went in came out both ends. He lost about 1/3 of his body weight, and eventually cost me over 2K with him on IV fluids staying at the Vets. $1,500 worth of blood work plus vet bills, etc. Vet prescribed kibble and canned, every expensive kibble you can imagine. He totally quit eating and was wasting away. And he was my Service Dog. I literally thought I would lose him. They could not find anything medically wrong with him.

I finally called his breeder and she told me she had raised his lineage back 3 generations on raw food, My vet did not agree, but I decided to follow the breeders advice instead. I tried feeding him a human grade raw bone in chicken thigh, making absolutely sure it didn't have any additives or solution. He ate it and it stayed down. No more throwing up, no more diarrhea.

I then went to feeding him totally raw. It took over 2 months for him to gain back his body weight. That was 8 years ago. He is 11 and in great shape. Last month I visited a friend that free feeds kibble. He was so excited and ate it. About an hour later it was all over her new carpet. I watch really carefully when visiting people and put any kibble on the counter. Any treats are only single ingredient.

This morning he had a raw pork chop, some pineapple and strawberries, and a sardine. Last night he had a chicken leg quarter, cooked sweet potato and steamed broccoli, plus kefir with phytoplankton mixed in.
I was very fortunate to have a vet whose concern for commercial dog food rivaled my own.
I also had a dog who was being slowly poisoned to death by commercial food, she was honestly on death's door at 4 years old.
(Now we know the results of the golden retriever tests but back then, we didn't- and she was an extremely well bred golden retriever,)
She couldn't walk, she had lost all her hair on her tail and nose, (hypothyroidism) and her back looked like a coffee table, everything she ate turned liquid and we started her on a raw diet.
She could handle the bones and raw carrots/green beans, but the proteins weren't doing her any good because she didn't chew- so they came right back up.
However we medicated her thyroid and I began cooking for her and it was miraculous, within a year she was in perfect health, her thyroid tested normal and she was off medication.
The blessing was that she lived to a ripe old age of 15 thinking she was a puppy the entire time.

I actually do not have a kibble free household. It is junk food and Noodle will eat a few cups of it a week, mostly in the evenings when all her feeding is done.
(unfortunately she cannot do raw carrots, they upset her stomach.)
But it really sits in the bowl she'll grab a mouthful and crunch and then walk away. I know it isn't good for her, but we live in a hurricane zone and there are times where
that will be all she can have and everything in moderation.

I truly do not judge how other people choose to feed their dogs, as long as the dog is thriving and living their best life- what more can you ask for?

I do have great respect for all the raw feeders out there. It is considerably more work to do raw well than to do home cooked.

But I am glad to hear other's experience with alternatives to commercial dog food, because it helps me to widen my menu.
Can you source green tripe? That is amazing for them but hard to come by.
Thanks!
 

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Thanks for your concerns. If you had read the full thread you would know that I'm feeding Jessie canned food that she does like very much and eats reliably because of her adverse reaction to kibble. I was attempting to describe why I don't feed her kibble in response to a direct question because I always get people recommending kibble over canned.

Since I got her as an adult and she is my first dog, I'm simply trying to use all indicators at my disposal to make sure the food I have her on agrees with her. Poo is just one of those indicators. And yes, I do believe the kibble aversion is a behavoiral problem, not a physical one, as does my vet. However, I'm not willing to continue trying to feed her food she doesn't like, especially since she'll skip meals and get sick.

Not everyone agrees that homemade foods are as good as commercial diets. I am one of those people, as is literally every vet I've spoken with in the 10 states I've lived in. I don't appreciate being thrown under the bus so quickly by other members of this forum.
My response was to the vicious cycle of feeding you posted. I was aware you were feeding canned but you were asking for kibble advice.
It truly horrified me that you would "stay firm" (your words, not mine,) and allow her to get in that physical condition.
Please do not take this the wrong way- seriously- this is not about you as a person, and you do not need to defend your position, or your words.
Every bit of knowledge we can share about dogs who do not speak our language or share our species is only to benefit them, not to throw you under the bus.

I do not know what tests your vet performed to determine this was a "behavioral" problem, or the vets in the other 10 states.
Dog allergies are pricey to diagnose but they would need to be ruled out before you can diagnose it as behavior especially when there are physical symptoms like vomiting
and loose stool. Some vets are like that though, they get stuck in their ways and the routine of their practice and do not do the research or question the symptoms.

Getting a dog as an adult is hard because they come with a whole set of habits that you cannot be aware of. Sometimes it is not a good fit despite our best intentions.
Since this is your first dog, your best source of information is your dog. I'm not saying that she dictates to you but if she is adverse to something, pay attention- find out what she likes.
If she likes canned food and she is thriving and happy,why worry about kibble? If someone tells you to feed raw or home cooked, and you don't agree- that is fine too.
Keep in mind though that your dog has to rely on your ability to care for her, she has to rely on you to consider and understand her. You make all the choices for her.
That's a huge responsibility and it requires you to be willing to respect her wishes along with your own.
She is at your mercy. It is not throwing you under the bus to make you consider that. It is meant out of kindness for your dog.

The issue I think you might have missed with this thread is that a lot of people gave you recommendations for the kibble you asked for, but you really needed to
relate your experience with her because you do care and you are concerned. As you can see in this forum that most people who do alternative diets have
dealt with a sick dog and that illness has cost them (and me) thousands of dollars just to diagnose and the vet treatments resulting weren't always successful.
Your description of the feeding cycle you and she experienced was heading in that direction.

It is not up to me to judge you, I just wanted you to consider that you might need a different perspective. I am sorry if I made you feel bad, if I spoke it to you in person,
you would have heard it differently, I promise.<3
 

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A few ideas and thoughts... I've read through this thread and it's evolution from dog poop to food, but didn't see a link to DogFoodAdvisor.com. It's extremely informative and rates nearly every commercial dog food on the market with monthly updates, and the founder isn't beholden to any corporate pet food company, see their About page. They also post dog food recalls and will email these to you if you sign up. Don't miss their Library either: it has links on problems any dog might be having from it's diet.

* * * * * * * * *

It's known that when one country conquers another through war, the hardest things to change are the food preferences of that culture and their religion. Dogs don't have the latter, but they sure have their preferences in taste which are established at an early age. In late 2017 thru 2018, I literally went through dozens of dry dog foods costing hundreds of dollars to convince then-puppy Bella to eat her darn food. In 2019, I found two that she will eat consistently (currently Royal Canine Puppy, and a cheaper brand with a low dog advisor rating), but only if she gets home-cooked food/scraps at least once a day. Otherwise she'll literally starve herself, lose weight, and get sick, so Zesti, I've been where you are and it's frustrating. I'm bringing this up because I care.

This is what I learned from this PF thread in Feb 2018 and the latest news at the time. Please read the thread in it's entirety. Dogs have an acutely sensitive sense of smell and taste, and the process of how any kind of food is made, cooked, or seasoned. It provides insight into why so many are picky to downright rejecting of so many dog foods or simply don't thrive on certain brands.


* * * * * * * *

Here's a comment from Post #9 from Peppersb (bold font mine), and she included a link to the full Harvard article:

"What goes into the rendering vat? ... [R]endering persists because it provides an essential service: disposing of millions of pounds of dead animals.[164] Proponents of rendering claim that there is no other way to dispose of these dead animals. Dr. William Heuston, formerly associate dean of the Virginia-Maryland College of Veterinary Medicine, argues that disposing of animals via landfills would create a “colossal public health problem,” because dead animals are the ideal medium for bacteria.[165] Cost and potential air pollution problems preclude burning the animal carcasses.[166]

Instead, United States rendering companies pick up 100 million pounds of “waste material” every single day.

This “waste material” includes: heads, feet, stomachs, intestines, spinal cords, tails, restaurant grease, feathers, bones, and dead or diseased animals rejected from slaughterhouses.[167]

Remember that under FDA and USDA regulations half of every cow and at least one third of every swine is not consumable by humans.

Cancerous tissue, tumors, contaminated blood, injection sites and any tissues treated with a substance not permitted by or in excess of FDA or EPA limits is also rendered.[168]


The inclusion of such items in pet food violates the FDA’s requirement regarding unadulterated food. Recall that foods containing “any part of a diseased animal” is deemed adulterated. [169] With an understanding of the rendering process and its ingredients, it is then unclear how AAFCO (and thereby the FDA) approves ingredients such as meat and bone meal for use in pet foods.

In addition to the “waste material,” six to seven million dogs and cats killed every year in animal shelters make their way into rendering vats.[170] The city of Los Angeles alone sends 200 tons of dogs and cats to a local rendering firm every month.

I feed a mostly home-cooked diet. I do use a little bit of kibble, but the kibble that I use is either vegan (v-dog) or certified humane (Open Farm)."

* * * * * * * * * *

In early 2018 the news blew up our TV's and Internet with investigations about how many dog food companies use rendering, and they found that euthanized pets were also included in the vats. The phenobarbital used to put down shelter animals was finding it's way to some of the dog food manufacturers and making them very ill or killing them. I learned later that I personally have a friend whose Cavalier Spaniel died from this.

And that PF thread wasn't the only one nor the only recall. Even back in 2015, there was this one that's worth the read on this thread: What's in your dog food?

And here's the video from that thread:


Back to DogFoodAdvisor.com. They're thorough and trustworthy. You may have to experiment with a lot of different brands to find one your dog loves, but here's a hint: if you order from chewy.com, and your dog rejects it, they will reimburse you.
 

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I am so glad you pulled forth that information on rendering, I wanted to but it is so mind bending and I had already said more than I should have
in relation to the post I replied to.

When I learned how commercial dog food was made, (and the heats that are required to make it,) I literally got ill, not just for the dogs, but
because my teenage children had often tasted the kibble prior to feeding.
Mad cow disease is believed to have started in the UK with the inclusion of slaughtered cows into cattle feed.

In pet food, it isn't just the euthanized animals, there is also vermin, feces- the leftovers on a slaughterhouse floor, sick animals- the drugs these animals have been exposed to
(barbituate levels were repoted to Congress in 2004), and the diseases they carry become part of the soup.

Yes they cook the render at high temps that should sterilize in theory, but temperature, as we all know, changes chemistry and content and since no one is specifically testing for those changes,
and despite research that has tested for those changes and found them to be unhealthy, what you buy in a can or a bag is anybody's guess.
Exposure of these practices hasn't changed the practices, we spend up to $5 per pound to slowly poison our pets.

Now that the Cornell Golden Retriever study has proven that the lack of taurine in food is linked to several severe diseases, has anyone seen a reduction in
pea protein in their kibble? You may see the addition of a manufactured taurine, but the pea protein is still how they reach their level of protein. How is it that something
as essential to the health and well being of a dog is lacking? The answer is easy- taurine comes from meat. Meat cost much more than peas/beans, and you really have no way to know how they are making their nutrition numbers on the back of a dog food label. For instance, the inclusion of a certain white fish has been used to allow them to list
the nutritional value of the oil in that whitefish in their food, but the reality is what they are including the waste product of that fish (starts with an M,) after the oil has been extracted for other consumer products.

There is evidence that dog's, like humans, and all living creatures, can live longer healthier lives if they just eat less unprocessed food.

Diet is a personal choice that we make for ourselves, our families, and our dogs.

 

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Thanks for your concerns. If you had read the full thread you would know that I'm feeding Jessie canned food that she does like very much and eats reliably because of her adverse reaction to kibble. I was attempting to describe why I don't feed her kibble in response to a direct question because I always get people recommending kibble over canned.

Since I got her as an adult and she is my first dog, I'm simply trying to use all indicators at my disposal to make sure the food I have her on agrees with her. Poo is just one of those indicators. And yes, I do believe the kibble aversion is a behavoiral problem, not a physical one, as does my vet. However, I'm not willing to continue trying to feed her food she doesn't like, especially since she'll skip meals and get sick.

Not everyone agrees that homemade foods are as good as commercial diets. I am one of those people, as is literally every vet I've spoken with in the 10 states I've lived in. I don't appreciate being thrown under the bus so quickly by other members of this forum.
Hi Zesti, I support your decision to feed commercial dog food & I know it suits my dogs better than any mixture I could make for them,
I know you love & care deeply for your girl
maybe anyone who can't handle how you look after your dog should just " scroll on by "
No judgement
 
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