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Discussion Starter #1
Reading through the thread posted earlier about a lady showing and having 40+ dogs makes me wonder what's the difference? What is an acceptable amount of breeding dogs?
 

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An age old question, and one I don't think you will get agreement on as everyone has a different answer!

The acceptable amount of breeding dogs for me is the number that can still be pets first and foremost. This varies according to breeder location, whether they work full time, how much help the have, etc, etc.

We have many friends in the dog world, some of whom are hobby breeders. The most any of our immediate friends has ever had is about 5 to 6. Those dogs are their pets, live in the house with them and travel with them. I probably would not be comfortable with a breeder who had much more than that.

I personally feel that once you get into the teens and higher that you have moved out of pets first/ hobby breeder and into a very different arena.
 

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This is a very good question. How many breeding dogs are acceptable? This is sort of like "bad art". I can't define it, but I sure know it when I see it! For me personally, at this stage in my life, I know that 3 Standards in my home is my limit. This is the number of dogs I can resonably groom, train and show.

What separates BYB from good breeder? My personal thoughts.....

I think good breeders are doing something with their dogs: show, performance, therapy, hunting etc. I like to see that breeding stock is having their breed worthiness independently proven in some way. It is never enough for me that someone says "Oh Fluffy has the BEST temperament!" I say prove it by getting out and showing in some venue! I also don't put a lot of stock in UKC confirmation showing so it is a red flag for me when folks only finish Poodles in UKC.

I like to see that breeders are trying to improve our breed by breeding to the very best dogs out there. It is a huge red flag for me if a breeder is breeding to their own (or outside) untitled, mediocre stud dogs.
 

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I can't imagine, finding the sheer attention BEYOND grooming, etc that 3 dogs require to be majorly (if pleasurably) time-consuming (and I work at home).

I do remember some horrorshow breeding 'show' operations, like one run by a well-known judge, when I was showing rabbits. Obviously a person can physically 'do' more buns in their rabbitry than a person could handle spoos, but in principle it was the same (said judge left my GC Flemish doe that I *loved*, my dear Missle, in a metal cage & left her to die in the heat, while she was there for breeding. The rabbitry was filthy, there were huindreds of rabbits, some dead in cages, some sick. I was a kid, but even I knew better, & I wish I'd listened to my instincts before I suffered that horrendous loss. But she was a 'well-known judge', who was I?)

I think it's a good idea not to get blinded by people's reps, beyond what you can see (and smell) ith your own eyes. Bluster (as we saw in the blog) seems to be a hallmark- I never met a truly first-class rabbit breeder with an attitude towards their purchasers- they always were helpful beyond call of duty (Everett's Belgian Hares, etc- see, after 35 years I still remember the excellent breeders). If those dogs went to shows stained w/ urine & matted under their topcoats, I (were I a judge) would've had huge red flags going off about their living conditions.


I can't imagine having more than 5 or 6 adult spoos (for someopne else! edit), full time with a seperate source of income, & years of experience/callouses for the grooming needs (unless you are the Duggars, & have 19 kids to train & socialize them), personally. YMMV.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for a resonable answer. I am not shopping I have my 2 dogs (pets/fixed). Just wondered.
 

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i can't imagine having more than 5 or 6 adult spoos (for someopne else! Edit), full time with a seperate source of income, & years of experience/callouses for the grooming needs (unless you are the duggars, & have 19 kids to train & socialize them), personally. Ymmv.
lmbo!!!
 

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I just know that I would not ever consider a breeder who has more than 5 dogs on the site - no matter if it is a BYB of "show breeder" . I would also expect that at least 2 of those are retired dogs from showing and breeding and kept and loved regardless , which would show me that breeder really loves and cares about her dogs and is not keeping only the "working animals" that bring some income or fame.

For a true BYB - to say that he is a good breeder - IMO, what would make him above other BYBs (beside having 3-5 dogs MAX) would be a health testing and involvement in ANY dog activity beside breeding ( even if it is a just a "fly-ball" LOL - BUT actively training and doing it !!!). Also , feeding a premium food and great grooming (no shave-downs regularly !!!!!!) and of course - keeping dogs in the home ( not any fenced off runs 24/7 !!!!)

Using the best stud possible in the area for breeding would be also a sign of at least some planning and thought given in the whole process.

Good BYB would also take great care of the puppies - give all appropriate vaccination and de-worming , etc...

All of this said - I must say I never met one that had "all of the above" :smow:

BUT - one can see some things not done well and corners cut even in "show homes" - so really :rolffleyes:... I do not know even what to to think any more about the whole thing - to be honest LMAO
 

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Reading through the thread posted earlier about a lady showing and having 40+ dogs makes me wonder what's the difference? What is an acceptable amount of breeding dogs?
I think its all relative.
I have 4 intact poodles, 2 males, 2 females, I have an intact sheltie bitch that I co-own and when she is 3 she will be bred one time to appease HER breeder.
I also have 3 intact borzoi(littermates)

I am actively showing(or paying people to) both the poodles and the Borzoi.

I have a un-championed, un-health tested litter on the ground right now.

some people may call me a BYB or what have you at first glance, heck maybe even at second glance, since I "just allowed my dogs to breed, regardless of testing or how they complimented each other, or if they had titles"

The difference is, that I give a crap about titles and testing, and stuff happens.

I have learned from our mistake, and have begun to make changes so that it doesn't happen again.

I purchased these dogs with the intention to champion them, test them, and then in the future, breed them and create a line of my own.


IMO a BYB does not care about the future, just the money in their pocket. They do not care if a puppy develops a genetic disorder, has faults, or is terrible in temperment (sp?) Many BYB breeder dogs are just family pets with reproductive organs, and possibly "papers" that may or may not be purebred.
A BYB will give little to no health guarentee, will not take their puppy back, and will usually not be there when you have a question.


A good breeder knows their breed like the back of their hand, but is always futhering their education. They Care about their stock, and the puppies that result from breedings. They will almost always take their puppy back at any point in its life, for any reason, although they will work with you to exhaust every option before you have to give up your pet.
They want to know where their puppies are going, they will ask a ton of questions, and make sure you understand their ideals.
They do extensive research regarding pedigrees, conditions common to the breed, and are active in the breed community.
.

They may or may not show, but they do test.

They care about the future, not just about making puppies.




There are such things as "Champion mills" breeders who have expensive, big name kennels and churn out tons of dogs a year, and finish a good number of them, but this is more for their own ego than for the future of the breed.

These are my opinions, different people will have different views :)
 

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What about professional handlers? I mean in order for it to be worth it to them they have to show quite a few dogs and as we all know poodles are high maintenance even for a professional person. Many handlers have their own dogs and puppies as well. How can one thing be worse than another? I get that testing is important for the future of the breed but that is not the end all to proving someone a good breeder. I think that some line needs to be drawn and instead of putting these breeders and handlers on a pedestal because they health test and show, they need to be held accountable just like a byb. The unfortunate thing is if you speak out, you are black listed so there is a lot of peer pressure to keep quiet about things that are wrongly being done. I'm tired of seeing dogs that do not deserve a champion title in front of their names have one just because of who owns the kennel or who they hired to show the dog. In order for any breed to move forward in a positive way, health, temperament, and structure (proper structure not host grooming competitions) needs to be judged appropriately and all of the stupid games and political BS that comes with showing needs to become a thing of the past. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Too often people use showing and breeding dogs as a personal confirmation about themselves and power over others. Look at the breeder from Whispering Pines and how she talked about valid puppy buyers and their questions. She felt a power over them and a validation to herself as a person through her dogs in having something that someone else wanted and only SHE could provide. Yet she sat there day after day with her dogs trapped in their own filth, no food and water, and did nothing all the while on her high horse.
 

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This is a very good question. How many breeding dogs are acceptable? This is sort of like "bad art". I can't define it, but I sure know it when I see it! For me personally, at this stage in my life, I know that 3 Standards in my home is my limit. This is the number of dogs I can resonably groom, train and show.

What separates BYB from good breeder? My personal thoughts.....

I think good breeders are doing something with their dogs: show, performance, therapy, hunting etc. I like to see that breeding stock is having their breed worthiness independently proven in some way. It is never enough for me that someone says "Oh Fluffy has the BEST temperament!" I say prove it by getting out and showing in some venue! I also don't put a lot of stock in UKC confirmation showing so it is a red flag for me when folks only finish Poodles in UKC.

I like to see that breeders are trying to improve our breed by breeding to the very best dogs out there. It is a huge red flag for me if a breeder is breeding to their own (or outside) untitled, mediocre stud dogs.
The amount of dogs for me is tricky question. I am confortable buying a from a bigger breeder the same way I am with a smaller scale one. Like Kspoo said many of these top breeders are going to have well over 5 dogs ...... they have them with handlers , co owners or paid help at their kennel. It just depends on the set up. If the bigger scale breeder has Paid help or family helping take care of the dogs , I see no problem with it. I know a lot of breeders I talk to have more than 5 dogs and they are very honest their dogs are taken care of and you can visit their house any time you want ( all breeds) I have talked to many breeders)

IMo what sets a BYB from a good breeder comes down to Ethics and animal welfare. BYB usually breed for money and breed bitches over and over with out breaks, They usually breed very young and the dogs are not fully health tested when bred. ( I am very sick of people saying their stock is fully health tested and their bitch is only 14 months having puppies .... if your bitch is not OFA on hips the its not FULLY health tested PERIOD, Most of these types of breeders are saying pre lims this pre lims that. ) I guess I just do not understand what is the rush in breeding ......

A good breeder will have great ethics , understand their line and dogs. They will be animal welfarist ! This means they are talking VERY VERY good care of their breeding stock and are not doing random breedings. Everything is planned out , they cull ( neuter spay) the weakest dogs out of their line and only want to improve it. They are HONEST period ... if you start asking a breeder questions and they give you wrong answers or decide they do not want to disclose something to you then IMO they are just as bad as the BYB's. I feel its VERY important to get referals ( other breeder referals not just pet buyers ...)

I 1000% agree with cbrand ( in red) If a poodle breeder is boosting and gloating about UKC wins and only shows UKC I think this is a red flag NOT unless they breed partis and only had partis. I know a parti breeder who shows her partis in UKC but shows her solids in AKC. If you have a solid poodle and are showing UKC IMO its a joke....... If its for practice thats fine lol
 

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At this point there are breeders that meet my standards and breeders that don't. When I look into a breeder I look at:

Do they show in AKC

Are they CH most of their dogs or just one or two of them

Are they using the best stud or just the closest

How much thought are they putting into their breedings

How long does it take their dogs to finish

How many dogs total do they have (there is no magic number here)

How many colors, breeds or varieties are the involved in

Are the dogs well taken care of

Are they doing the proper health testing (not just hips and eyes)

How many litters do they have a year

How long have they been in it

Do they view their dogs as things or family members

Have the sold or bred dogs to BYB dogs or Doodles

Is the breeder friendly and approachable

Are they charging what their dogs are worth (cost should reflect the breeder's investment, I'm quite put off by a breeder in my area charging $2000 for puppies out an unfinished, unproven bitch)

Are they requiring a puppy application (I don't care for these at all; I want to talk to the breeder and I think that's a much better way for both sides to get the info they need)

There is a lot more, but those are the basics. People throw labels around too much and there isn't a magical formula to it. You can't look at one thing and make a decision either, you have to take the whole picture into account.
 

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At this point there are breeders that meet my standards and breeders that don't. When I look into a breeder I look at:

Do they show in AKC

Are they CH most of their dogs or just one or two of them

Are they using the best stud or just the closest

How much thought are they putting into their breedings

How long does it take their dogs to finish

How many dogs total do they have (there is no magic number here)

How many colors, breeds or varieties are the involved in

Are the dogs well taken care of

Are they doing the proper health testing (not just hips and eyes)

How many litters do they have a year

How long have they been in it

Do they view their dogs as things or family members

Have the sold or bred dogs to BYB dogs or Doodles

Is the breeder friendly and approachable
Are they charging what their dogs are worth (cost should reflect the breeder's investment, I'm quite put off by a breeder in my area charging $2000 for puppies out an unfinished, unproven bitch)

Are they requiring a puppy application (I don't care for these at all; I want to talk to the breeder and I think that's a much better way for both sides to get the info they need)

There is a lot more, but those are the basics. People throw labels around too much and there isn't a magical formula to it. You can't look at one thing and make a decision either, you have to take the whole picture into account.
I like this :)

In the red is VERY important to me ! If the breeder is nasty and rude why bother ? I always do this when shopping, If the people inside dont say hi to me when i walk in or try to help me then why should I give them my money ?
 

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Emmm.... I think we completely digressed from the original question LOL

What makes a BYB an OK breeder LOL

Roxy - you are absolutely right about no. of dogs with Co-ownership - that is completely another matter ;).

I was referring about "how many dogs are in one place" : )))

NOBODY can exercise, socialize and keep more than 5-6 spoos groomed regularly and IN the house comfortably and also spend real, quality time with them , JMO

If they have 10 additional dogs out with co-owners, handlers , fosters and so on - that is completely OK - of course LOL

I had a an acquaintance who was a "good BYB" IMO. He bread Huskies and those dogs are really very independent breed and do not need a ton of grooming or human socializing - although he provided a ton of that also. He was actively involved in sledding competitions - had 4 adults and a litter maybe every 3 years to get at least 2 new pups for HIMSELF - rest were placed with friends and family and occasional buyer for 500 $. He did all health testing required for a Husky breed, new it all about AKC standard for his breed and strived to adhere even though some other qualities were very important for an active sled dog (they looked great but were excellent performers also) . No dogs ever had accidental breeding and were kept inside, unless exercised or in training.

So - back to original question - is there such a thing as a "good BYB" - IMO , there is.
 

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I don't see anything wrong with that man's breeding practices wishpoo. I think they are better than many.
 

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The breeder who invited me to her home had 7 immaculate white Spoos. One was in full show coat and a handler was showing her ringside. They all seemed very healthy and happy to me. They weren't crated for long periods of time and I was told they slept in her bed at night. Just sayin.
 

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to me the term BYB means someone who

although may have a small # of dogs and may have dogs in good shape

1- breeds with no thought to the dog being produced- ie no testing. no matching dog to bitch looking at strengths and faults. doesn't prove the dog in ny ring- conformation, gility etc
2- breeds unregistered dogs or dogs registered not in a major club (IE the 'rare breeds association..." and breeds crosses (and right now that's a lot of flyball people for me- these border stafies are driving me NUTS)
3-does not care what type of home the dog goes to- and does not try to match the puppy to the buyer


a good small breeder sounds like your friend wishpoo
1- knows their breed nd breeds to improve producing as good as the parents if not better
2-registers their dogs, and pays attention to the bloodlines being used
3-finds good homes and matches puppy to buyer
4-does appropriate testing on their breed. TO me this means 'to the norm' not all breeds do a lot of testing- some very work based ones do less then others.
5- stands by their dogs- does the best they cn to insure pups they have bred always have home nd do not end up in shelters.
6- have their dogs as part of their family- time in the house- time on the 'couch/bed/lap etc'

puppy mills- are like the BYB but do not give adaquet care to their animals and breed on a grand scale producing more and more litters purely for the income
 

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I agree with Nevar.

I am really getting tired of "showing" being part of the "difference" between a BYB and a good breeder. There can be lots of reasons people do not show, from phobias to past experience with the politicalness (is that a word?) of it all. This business with Whispering Pines should be proof enough that because one shows, it does not make them a good or caring breeder. But, if finding a breeder who shows is high on your priority list, THIS could be the type of breeder you COULD be dealing with.

I do not show, after having been involved in it for years and watching the transformation of the world of conformation shows with handlers being the norm, and all of the stuff that goes with that. But I can guarantee, you will never see photos of my home like the ones we have seen this week.


I am sure there are people on here who consider me a back yard breeder because I breed reds and do not show. I however have a different opinion. My puppies are going into show homes (Brandi) and homes where rally and/or obedience/agilty titles could be in the future (Lucy) and CGC's (Betty-Jo and Jenny). I may look at showing my Winnow boy depending on how he matures. I research pedigrees to try to breed the best matches to my girls, to bring great health and improved structure to the table.

For me the differences are:

How many litters do they produce a year?
Do they do health testing (with proof) on their breeding dogs?
Do they reach out of their general vicinity to find GREAT mates for their dogs, who will improve the quality of the pups they are producing?
Do they keep their retired breeding dogs to live a good and well deserved life of leisure with them, or do they re-home them?
Can they answer all questions you have about Poodles in general?
Can they answer all questions about their dogs specifically?
Do their dogs live in the home, or are they kennel dogs?
Are their puppies raised in the home, in a clean area, or are they raised in a kennel, outbuilding or in the yard?
Do they feed the puppies good quality puppy food?
Are their puppies registered?

There are lots of diamonds in the rough, people findiing their way around things and trying. There are others who present themselves as great breeders who should be selling cars instead of dogs.
 

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if i know more about the breed than the breeder, then they are a back yard breeder.
if they just take two full blooded dogs and breed them to make some money ... ugh and double ugh.

i don't care if the dogs are home raised or kenneled. i would like to know the dogs are kept clean and healthy and taken care of and the goal of the breeder to ethically improve the breed and to spay/neuter those who aren't up to those standards.

my cairns are both akc registered and sold as limited pet quality (they have white on their chest which is a "flaw") and so does my spoo, who is akc registered, but sold w/ full registry (she does have parti genes in her line) ... but i have no intention of ever breeding her. i got as my baby friend.
 

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I do not show, after having been involved in it for years and watching the transformation of the world of conformation shows with handlers being the norm, and all of the stuff that goes with that.
One does not have to show in conformation to prove her dogs. Why not show in obedience, agility, tracking etc?
 
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