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Discussion Starter #1
What color are these dogs? Some one is telling me they are cafe au lait but this is not the color i have associated with that. they look apricot and cream.... ugh!!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
most frustrating part?!?!?!? the person trying to tell me this is my BREEDER!!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! My brain is melting!! please let me know if there is any basis for her claiming this!!! Also, should i tell her that she is wrong??? (in a more eloquent way of course....)
 

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Can someone post a good example of cafe au lait? I tried to google it, but I get everything from dark brown, red, apricot, silver beige, to cream!
 

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Proving once again that just because people breed, it doesn't mean that they know jack-diddly about Poodles!

Cafe is in the Brown spectrum and ergo will always have LIVER PIGMENT! Those dogs are Red/Apricot and Cream respectively. Who is the breeder?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
thats exactly what i thought a cafe was. The breeder is out of stevensville, mt.
 

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That's Sapphire Mountain Poodles (Also Shiloh Gardens). If the Father is Bamm Bamm then the pup is definitely a red but looks to be a light red. It will probably end up a very, very light red. I saw the other girl "Mimi" on Past litters. She would have been submitted to the AKC registry as Apricot in my opinion. So who is the Dam of this Pup?
 

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cafe au lait pictures in book

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I found a book labeling a :)color cafe au lait--full page (plus on the cover is one) and I pretty much agree. Plus they have a regular brown, cream, apricot. I bought one-it had some of that "awe cute" to it from the 70's. I'm a sucker I admit--I liked it. Feel free to crosspost to the others if you agree its cafe or similar and might help. You might get it to open to a bigger pic elsewhere.

Poodles by t.f.h (the editors)
isbn 0-86622-234-0 pb-122 c1984

It might pull a picture up--ok I googled-it went to ebay--there's several on there now to see a pic of cafe on cover (theres 3 more inside though-the labeled one is p22 in a 70's show coat-different poodle)


phone pics 0808.jpg This should be an attachment of that book cover I found on ebay (cafe au laits in it).
 

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here's a site that's very informative on colors. I've posted it before, but it's worth posting again.

http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/poodlecoatcolorsbrownandcafeaulait.html

there's a pic here http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=5534 of a Cafe standard i groom. She started out very dark brown and was sold as a brown. The breeder didn't know she was a cafe or at least didnt' tell the buyer.

It's the second one with her head cocked sideways. The 5th one, I've done since he was a puppy and he was very dark brown and has gotten very silvery as he's aged.
 

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they are pretty

---those show the color well don't they! Like the clips--I was looking at wrong thread in there first and found them near bottom --then the lightbulb came on
 

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This breeder responded; "I am able to produce a gorgeous true café' au lait with the black pigment. The standard is liver points, but I have a line that produces the black points. His granddam is brown which is where the café' au lait come thru the line. He is out of BamBam (Red) and Joy (Black) who's dam is a brown."

The web site says that that Joys lines are, "black, brown, red and apricot."

Cafe Au Lait typically start as some shade of brown and lighten. Remember the AKC Poodle Standard for Cafe Au Lait is brown points. They look alot like chocolate milk with varying shades of the chocolate milk.

Personally, I would NEVER breed a red to a Black that has brown siblings and Brown Dam. Not good color breeding practices.
 

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This breeder responded; "I am able to produce a gorgeous true café' au lait with the black pigment. The standard is liver points, but I have a line that produces the black points.
What a git! Ummm..... Raena.. why would you buy a dog from this person? She clearly does NOT know what she is doing.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
when i got Zu i was not looking for color i just did not want a light colored dog (hence Zulu is black) the reason i asked her about her minis was that one of my grooming clients mini passed away recently and she is looking for another brown mini... fyi i will not be sending her to this breeder... do any of you know of a decent mini breeder who would have browns? i do not know what price range she is looking in but we are in montana, so some one closeish would probably be ideal...
 

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I was wondering about her red breeding practices, cause all of my research said that mixing a brown (or any color with close brown lineage) was a big no-no sooo... are her "reds" really reds, or just deep apricots, that will fade over time? I do not think that i have seen a pic of one of her "reds" as an adult...
 

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I was wondering about her red breeding practices, cause all of my research said that mixing a brown (or any color with close brown lineage) was a big no-no sooo... are her "reds" really reds, or just deep apricots, that will fade over time? I do not think that i have seen a pic of one of her "reds" as an adult...
It is stupid with a capital "S" to breed a red to a brown or to something with brown in it's immediate background. I know a breeder who bred their red to a brown with one testicle, and got ten blacks (with God knows what going on because of their father's lack of one testicle). Some of those pups were retained as breeders, and some were sold as breeders. Sad that someone can "talk" and make it sound as if they have a clue what they are doing, but most pet buyers do not know better and most don't really care either.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
quick question why would anyone breed a cryptorchid???????? AGH! and then keep puppies for breeding! they should have been neutered as should the stud. coming from an equine background crypts are BAD NEWS! most of the time they have a few screws loose...
 

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Forgive my ignorance but - why is breeding red to brown or black from brown lines such a terrible breeding?
I remember a breeder a few years back who had some top blacks and browns. When she started out in reds she bred her bitches to her show-winning brown boy, got some blacks, which were then linebred into the red/apricot side of the family, with some excellent results.
 

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I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about - but what I understand is that browns may introduce incorrect pigments (liver noses, eye rims, lips) into the reds... Reds should have black noses, eye rims/lips... But the REAL breeders may be able to explain this better - I've just heard that browns are a real no-no if you're breeding reds or apricots which need the black pigments.
 
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