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Discussion Starter #1
I'm watching it now on PBS. It's very telling on some of the breeding issues with different breeds. I'm still waiting to see what they say about the poodle. Do you think the AKC breed standard for the poodle is what it should be?

What would you change to the breed standard if you could. Also what regulations would you recommend to the breeders (such as immediate line breeding such as father to daughter)?
 

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Firstly, the AKC and CKC need to recognize the standard poodle as a sporting breed. I also think the continental clip is outdated and can be easily manipulated to hide conformation flaws. I would love to see show dogs in sporting clips, so that their structure is clearly visible.

For breeders, I want to see a balance between conformation/showing and hunting titles. I want to see SOME kind of title on all breeding dogs. There are way too many breeders just breeding companion dogs.
 

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Firstly, the AKC and CKC need to recognize the standard poodle as a sporting breed. I also think the continental clip is outdated and can be easily manipulated to hide conformation flaws. I would love to see show dogs in sporting clips, so that their structure is clearly visible.
I agree 100%!!! As beautiful as the continental clip is, it is way too concealing for a show dog. I don't like that you can hide structural faults underneath it, and think the dog should be judged on it's actual physical structure, not its groom job. A sporting clip, or even a tight lamb (just cause poodles do need some pretty flair :) ) should be used for shows. Even under a lamb you can hide bad structure easily though, so I would really prefer an all-over clip...

Honestly though, I tend to dislike excessive coat on any show dog. I think that if the purpose of showing a dog is showing off how it is structurally sound and is a good example of its breed, you should be able to SEE that!
 

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That is a wonderful idea. A friend of mine is getting a black Standard puppy next month and he says he was put off by the show clips. He said its not fair that a dog can win because it has a professional haircut. I know that is not supposed to be the purpose of a show clip - to hide faults -- but I bet it does happen.
 

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Well, oddly enough, the poodle wasn't mentioned in the show. I agree with both of you. I would also like to know that a show dog has to present health testing before it is allowed in the ring.

What is the purpose to have a good skeletal structure, if there are known heart, skin, seizures, blood disorders, ect? If the kennel club was really wanting to uphold better breeding standards, they would have tougher criteria to show.

One official said that they would 'lose' several breeders if they did, and they would just breed anyway. Perhaps. I would like to think that ethical breeders would gladly comply if they could prove that they were the better breeder to the buying public.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I would like to see other clips in the show ring too. I do think it is giving the breed a bad rep.
 

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I agree with the whole sportier haircut thing too. I think more people would show if they did not have to maintain all of that coat. I do not think it is right that a dog might win because it might have a better groom, covering up flaws better. I also dont think it is fair that a short coated dog like a Dalmation has to compete against a dog with coat like a Poodle that has so much more opportunity to hide imperfections in the dogs structure.
 

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I honestly think it does not matter what cut a poodle is in. I have seen UKC poodles in sporting clip and you can't even tell if the dog looks good or not.... With the CC you get to see more of the dog. Sure maybe something can be hidden but it all comes down to the dog being touched by the Judge. You can't fake good lay back of the shoulders. You also can not fake nice movement.

I think poodle breeders have done a great job with the breed because there is no split with this breed like there is with others.
 

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agree on the haircuts being one reason poodles aren't as popular. makes people think the dog is foo foo. I also think those haircuts are what drive the cross breed sales since people appear to want all the attributes of a poodle in their cross breed, but somehow won't buy a poodle for no explainable reason, other than the foo foo fear.


that said if poodles get popular again I fear for the lines, once there's big $$$ in the BYBs and puppy mills will be all over it.
 

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i think breeding stock needs to be inspected. Inspected and approved and then can have full registration for off spring.

In the horse world the Warmbloods, and baroque breeds do this. your stallion gets inspected by a panel and gets scored. your mare does as well. Then the foals have full registration. what is great about this is there are scores 1-10 for all the different parts. Movement- head, back, hip, hind leg etc are all score seperately. There is a total overall score (Those added up) out of 10... but the owner gets the score of each part. Anything over a total score of X passes (most are 6 for mares 7 for stallions- some are higher depending on the breed) but no individual part can be less then a 5 (EX if you have a great dog who has HORRID feet- that dog won't meet the mininum requirement for breeding.


I"d love to see this done in dogs- Yes showing and championships are a sign- but we all know part of it is how much $ you can throw into it you can finish a dog that's not great if it's got lots of shows and a good handler behind it. You can also breed as long as it's registered and have the pups be registered.

So if we had that at the shows 2 or 3 of the judges (Studies show 3 gives the most middle of the road scoring in the horse world) then score that dog based off the breed standard. Feet 7, head 8, hind legs 7... and gets it 'approved' for breeding.

So yes- we have stock doing this in the sense of going to a show and being championed . But because dogs aren't 'scored' per say- the dog who wins someone goes OH WOW look at his hind leg- he won becuase of THAT angulation- and then they all start breeding for that- and voila you have what the GS's have today.
 
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