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Rose n Poos, yes in Canada also Rabies is legally required. Some use the 3-year rabies vaccine, others are 2 or even 1 year.
The same for the other core vaccines, depending on the clinic will repeat them every 1,2, or 3 years. The non-core are yearly across the board.
 

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Of course the dog clubs require vaccinations. They don’t know your lifestyle habits and it’s just safer. I’m saying our state and counties around me don’t require vaccines to get the rabies shot. Never have.
Do you mean that the other vaccines aren't required in order to get the rabies vaccine? If so, yes, the only legally required vaccine across North America is the rabies. A vet might pressure you into the other ones at the same time but can't force them.
 

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Do you mean that the other vaccines aren't required in order to get the rabies vaccine? If so, yes, the only legally required vaccine across North America is the rabies. A vet might pressure you into the other ones at the same time but can't force them.
Thank you Starvt, I guess I wasn’t concise enough about what I was trying to say, but you cleared it up.
 

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Porkchop I'm with you. The analogy is the recent occurrence of measles where a loss of herd immunity resulted in several significant and nongeographically contiguous outbreaks including in American Samoa (or it might have been Guam) there were fatalities in children. Later in life I think titering for immunity is okay, but not so much in young dogs.
Thank you so much for your important message. We are friends with a young couple whose 5 month old baby had a cancerous tumor removed, that was 1/6 of his body weight. Due to his treatments, he could not receive his scheduled immunizations. I was absolutely choked with rage on behalf of this tragic little family because during the baby's long hospital stay, a pile of idiotic Anti Vaxxer parents flooded the wards with their kids who had contracted Measles during a wholly preventable outbreak. This little baby lost a kidney and was enduring the agony of chemotherapy - and then his life was needlessly endangered by a preventable disease like Measles brought into the hospital wards by irresponsible morons . In his weakened state, he would have died had he caught Measles. Honestly, I have sympathy for any parent whose fragile baby is needlessly threatened who would like to see those Anti Vaxxer parents and their plague children turned away from the medical establishment they had previously scorned.

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Hi Laura! There are a few things to consider when doing your research.
There is the risk to benefit ratio. What is the prevalence of IMHA suspected to be from vaccinations? versus the prevalence of contracting one of the other possibly lethal diseases if not vaccinated? Remember, IMHA is a rare condition and there are different factors that may cause this immune response. I don’t have hard numbers here. I would take an educated guess and say the chance of contracting distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus, or rabies is much more likely than the chance of developing IMHA. Different regions of the country have different rates but overall the risk is still there. Generally distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus and leptospirosis are in one combination vaccine.

another thing to consider is if you will be attending dog training classes, using a professional groomer, dog daycare or play days, etc. These business will require you to have these basic vaccines.

Breeders will start off a puppy’s first and possibly second round of vaccines before you take them home. I don’t know if there are reputable breeders who do not vaccinate their puppies?

personally, I want the insurance for my dog going on walks in the neighborhood or playing in the park and not coming across another infected animal, feces, or contaminated soil. I also don’t want to spread illness to other dogs. I gave my dog the basic vaccines I listed above, as well as the oral bordatella vaccine. I will do Lyme disease once it gets out of the dead of winter because I live in an area where ticks are prevalent in the warm weather and Lyme disease is fairly common.

Obviously I’m pro vaccination. It will be interesting to hear other pet parents weigh in on this. One of the best things you can do is ask the vet when you take your puppy for their initial visit about the chances of infection vs the risk of vaccines and decide if you want to hold off or not.

Good luck with your new puppy, and thumbs up for doing your research and asking questions! Poodles are such wonderful dogs.
Thanks for the great facts. Well stated. I will add one more point. In addition to being rightfully barred from all responsible groomers and dog daycares, the presence of an unvaccinated dog in your vehicle will result in all being turned back at any border crossing. We carry up to date vaccination certification every time we cross - and the guards do check.

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My Gracie went her whole life without visibly reacting to any vaccinations, and then at 10 - WHAM!! She got hit hard by the rabies vaccine. It was awful to watch. Vomiting, confusion, two trips back to the vet before they administered what I believe was a steroid shot.... All her vaccinations until then had been in Canada, but we were in Wisonsin at the time, in the process of moving to our current home in the Pacific Northwest.

One of the first things we did here was get her set up with a new vet, and after hearing about her reaction, the vet said NO more vaccines. Not at her age, with her history.

All this to say: I'm grateful to everyone who does vaccinate their pets, so my dear old Gracie could go unvaccinated for her last few years without any major risks.
Yes. And THAT rare exception is why Herd Immunity is so critical!

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I’m on the board of a rural animal shelter. Every summer I see the effects of the failure to vaccinate. It’s so devastating to our staff to do everything we can and to watch puppies die when a simple series of shots would have prevented disease. Distemper lives in the soil for a decade. Parvo is incredibly contagious and is brutal to watch. I typically add a set of boosters to the puppy series in my own pets in case I am exposed while volunteering at the shelter. Should you choose not to vaccinate you will need to make sure your pet never visits a dog park, a neighbor’s yard, a pet store or anyplace where adult dogs are common.

Now there is one area where I think you can be more lax. I have had vets tell me that a dog that has been regularly vaccinated past the age of 7-8 should only need rabies shots going forward. They should have full immunity by that time. I would rely on my Vet’s advice on this though.
 

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Recently, I read about this horrible, horrible disease called IMHA. It seems that people believe that it is directly related to pet vaccinations.
This is a needless concern. No death certificate is issued when a dog dies. It would be impossible to determine what percentage of unvaccinated dogs developed IMHA. Most dogs who receive no vaccines also receive no veterinary care. A dog who is not vaccinated and who develops IMHA is very likely to die undiagnosed.

I second the recommendation for Dr. Jean Dodds vaccination protocol. Dr. Jean Dodds
Dr. Dodds has been extremely effective in promoting her opinions, but they are still simply opinions and unsupported by science. Evidence Update: Dodds Study on Vaccine Dose in Small Breed Dogs |
 

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I follow the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines - evidence based, respected by vets, and sensible. In essence it requires a full puppy course for core vaccines, with a booster at 12 months in case of any residual maternal antibodies, etc. Then three-yearly for core vaccines, and as required by the dog's life style and environment for non-core. These diseases are too dangerous to risk because of unproven anecdotal correlation with rare disorders, which, as Jbean says, may have other explanations even if they are statistically valid. Vaccinated dogs live longer and receive better health care - they are therefore likely to predominate in all disease statistics compiled by vets.

Anecdote is not data - it is a bit like the proverbial friend's grandfather who smoked 40 cigarettes a day and was healthy till he died in an accident at the age of 99, which used to be offered as "proof" that it was not true that smoking damages your health!
 

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HI @Iciano, I think you have received wise counsel here from people regarding the general safety of vaccinations. Unfortunately, disease is a reality of this world—it is in nature, so no amount of “being natural” is going to prevent it.

As a mother who attempts to do the holistic route when possible, I do totally understand where you are coming from with wanting the best for your little pup. I have studied the possible autoimmune effects of vaccinations, but the truth is that there is no conclusive scientific consensus that it is the vaccinations that are causing an increase in autoimmunity. As with all issues of health, the picture is more complex than a singular causal variable; it is a synthesis of factors that are almost too impossibly complex to disentangle.

Elite collegiate institutions worldwide are attempting to with limited success and conflicting results due to the complexity of the natural world. The increase in autoimmunity likely has also to do with the toxins of industrialization and nutritional deficiencies in the food supply chain, which we can only mitigate in our own living environments, not eliminate. It is also important to note that autoimmunity itself is not new; it has been around since human beings have been around. Modern times have not caused it, but it is more common now. My vet recommended against tither testing due to recent research in the veterinary community which investigated a link between vaccines and autoimmunity and found no conclusive evidence suggesting an increase in disease from following the vaccination protocol. Thus my vet said this higher risk schedule puts puppies at risk.

As for the Jane Dodd ideas. I talked to a breeder who used to follow the Jane Dodd Vaccination Protocol, and this person confided in me that they had lost an entire litter of puppies to parvovirus due to following this protocol. So traumatizing. This is despite living out in the country, where less contact with large animal populations is the norm and people may have romantic notions that disease is less likely to flourish. Disease is everywhere.

I also worked at a large volume human society where Parvo was a huge problem and killed whole litters of puppies. The cleaning and separation protocols for managing this disease were scrupulous, but even so, the virus sometimes spread to other uninfected litters of puppies. It’s very serious. Another risk of not getting the Leptospirosis virus is that Lyme’s disease itself can cause autoimmune problems that the dog previously did not have. There is no perfect solution to the reality of disease in the world. Vaccinations are the best control we have over epidemiological disease.

And for Rabies, absolutely vaccinate. This is very grave. A dog can carry rabies without the disease manifesting for a greatly variable period—between 10 days to a year. Rabies is 100% fatal to human beings if the proper prophylaxis is not administered in time. And "catching it in time" is not an acceptable risk for anyone to impose on another person. The onset window for the virus in children is faster since the disease has less distance to travel to the brain.

Please at least vaccinate for rabies, whatever else you decide. A dog's optimal health is not more important than the public being protected. To mitigate issues with autoimmunity, give your puppy omega-3 fatty acids like cod liver oil at an appropriate dosage around the time that you vaccinate, and have your puppy on a high quality probiotic supplement (Nusentia Probiotic Miracle Premium Blend is a good one) to help him build a resilient microbiome which will help his immune system stay stable and help his digestion. You can also supplement his food with homemade bone broth to help build tight epithelial junctures which should protect against immune dysfunction as well. :)
 

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P.S. With rabies -- If your dog ever bites someone, the protocol is to quarantine them for 10-14 days meeting only their basic life needs. In the nightmare where your unvaccinated dog actually turns out to have rabies, then you have to track down every single person that the dog came in contact with to warn them and these poor people then have to receive rabies shots which can be extremely expensive. Not to mention, what if you can't find every person the dog came in contact with, which is the most likely scenario if you bring your dog into public?

And rabies doesn't always start off as "my dog is foaming at the mouth and being violent." It can start off as lethargy and poor appetite and be hard to identify as rabies at first... but they can still transmit it at that time through saliva. I know of a little boy who had to receive the rabies shots after playing with a kitten that was later determined to have rabies, though it had no symptoms at the time. This really happens.

I don't mean to be a negative Nancy here, I believe the Poodle forum should be a positive place. But I feel it's my obligation to post this information in the interest of public safety. I do hope you have a wonderful time shopping for your puppy Iciano. It is an exciting time. Your puppy will be fine if you vaccinate. Try not to worry! Like with vaccines, prudent precautions are the best we can do in a world where our control is limited.
 

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P.S. With rabies -- If your dog ever bites someone, the protocol is to quarantine them for 10-14 days meeting only their basic life needs. In the nightmare where your unvaccinated dog actually turns out to have rabies, then you have to track down every single person that the dog came in contact with to warn them and these poor people then have to receive rabies shots which can be extremely expensive. Not to mention, what if you can't find every person the dog came in contact with, which is the most likely scenario if you bring your dog into public?

And rabies doesn't always start off as "my dog is foaming at the mouth and being violent." It can start off as lethargy and poor appetite and be hard to identify as rabies at first... but they can still transmit it at that time through saliva. I know of a little boy who had to receive the rabies shots after playing with a kitten that was later determined to have rabies, though it had no symptoms at the time. This really happens.

I don't mean to be a negative Nancy here, I believe the Poodle forum should be a positive place. But I feel it's my obligation to post this information in the interest of public safety. I do hope you have a wonderful time shopping for your puppy Iciano. It is an exciting time. Your puppy will be fine if you vaccinate. Try not to worry! Like with vaccines, prudent precautions are the best we can do in a world where our control is limited.
Great facts. Also, humans can have adverse reactions to the rabies shots too. How is that fair to the unsuspecting people whose only crime was to visit a public space and come into contact with some irresponsible owner's dog? If those people cannot be found, they will die within 10 to 50 days should the virus remain undetected and reach the spinal column. Rabies, if untreated, is FATAL.

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HI @Iciano, I think you have received wise counsel here from people regarding the general safety of vaccinations. Unfortunately, disease is a reality of this world—it is in nature, so no amount of “being natural” is going to prevent it.

As a mother who attempts to do the holistic route when possible, I do totally understand where you are coming from with wanting the best for your little pup. I have studied the possible autoimmune effects of vaccinations, but the truth is that there is no conclusive scientific consensus that it is the vaccinations that are causing an increase in autoimmunity. As with all issues of health, the picture is more complex than a singular causal variable; it is a synthesis of factors that are almost too impossibly complex to disentangle.

Elite collegiate institutions worldwide are attempting to with limited success and conflicting results due to the complexity of the natural world. The increase in autoimmunity likely has also to do with the toxins of industrialization and nutritional deficiencies in the food supply chain, which we can only mitigate in our own living environments, not eliminate. It is also important to note that autoimmunity itself is not new; it has been around since human beings have been around. Modern times have not caused it, but it is more common now. My vet recommended against tither testing due to recent research in the veterinary community which investigated a link between vaccines and autoimmunity and found no conclusive evidence suggesting an increase in disease from following the vaccination protocol. Thus my vet said this higher risk schedule puts puppies at risk.

As for the Jane Dodd ideas. I talked to a breeder who used to follow the Jane Dodd Vaccination Protocol, and this person confided in me that they had lost an entire litter of puppies to parvovirus due to following this protocol. So traumatizing. This is despite living out in the country, where less contact with large animal populations is the norm and people may have romantic notions that disease is less likely to flourish. Disease is everywhere.

I also worked at a large volume human society where Parvo was a huge problem and killed whole litters of puppies. The cleaning and separation protocols for managing this disease were scrupulous, but even so, the virus sometimes spread to other uninfected litters of puppies. It’s very serious. Another risk of not getting the Leptospirosis virus is that Lyme’s disease itself can cause autoimmune problems that the dog previously did not have. There is no perfect solution to the reality of disease in the world. Vaccinations are the best control we have over epidemiological disease.

And for Rabies, absolutely vaccinate. This is very grave. A dog can carry rabies without the disease manifesting for a greatly variable period—between 10 days to a year. Rabies is 100% fatal to human beings if the proper prophylaxis is not administered in time. And "catching it in time" is not an acceptable risk for anyone to impose on another person. The onset window for the virus in children is faster since the disease has less distance to travel to the brain.

Please at least vaccinate for rabies, whatever else you decide. A dog's optimal health is not more important than the public being protected. To mitigate issues with autoimmunity, give your puppy omega-3 fatty acids like cod liver oil at an appropriate dosage around the time that you vaccinate, and have your puppy on a high quality probiotic supplement (Nusentia Probiotic Miracle Premium Blend is a good one) to help him build a resilient microbiome which will help his immune system stay stable and help his digestion. You can also supplement his food with homemade bone broth to help build tight epithelial junctures which should protect against immune dysfunction as well. :)
Thank you, thank you. Excellent science. I used to live in an area with huge skunk populations , big rabies carriers. I would capture the wild barn cats and have them vaccinated just because they posed a significant risk to both horses (who also got vaccinated )and humans coming to the stables.

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Rabies vaccines are so important ! Yes to there still being Rabies in wild animals, which our own animals can get and then pass around to each other and us.. I had a friend bitten by a dog in when he was traveling in Thailand. There were so many homeless dogs running around. There was no way to tell if the dog had been immunized, they weren't even sure which one it was. So he had to go through a miserable round of Rabies treatment.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
The OP hasn't been back since posting but jic,

I'm pretty sure the only legally required vaccine is Rabies in the US and I think also in Canada (please correct me if needed).

That said there are Core Vaccines (Rabies is one of those) which most vets will, with good reason, want to give your pup. These include Distemper, Parvo and others.

The next level is called Non-Core Vaccines. These are sometimes called Lifestyle Vaccines. These include Lyme, Leptospirosis and others. Sometimes, due to geographic movement of the means of transmission, or change in lifestyle, these may shift to Core status.

(Naturally, I'll add some links lol.)

Research is showing that many/most of these vaccines remain effective beyond the old 1 year legal re-vaccination requirement (after the original and booster series), and many places will now accept a 3 year Rabies vac because of that.

Titering to check antibody levels is gaining ground in place of simply re-vaccinating yearly (or a longer interval) for non-Rabies vaccines but there is still discussion, not about validity in itself, but testing guidelines.


Core/Non-Core



Titering

Thanks so much. I'm still here, just been busy but I am reading all of your responses and appreciate your help and advice. Since my mini passed almost 4 years ago now, I have to catch up on the latest information out there, so thanks for the links too!
 

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I had the typical puppy vaccines done for my toy poodle (parvo, rabies). My vet also recommended the Lepto vaccine because she said she's seen a few dogs in the past few years get sick from Lepto, and they were all small dogs (mostly yorkies). I'm a big believer in the importance of vaccines, especially for children, so I went ahead and had my toy poodle get the first Lepto shot and it was horrible; he didn't move for at least 12 hours. I would pick him up to take him outside on the grass to potty, and he would fall into the grass, couldn't even stand up. I was so upset, I thought I had just killed my dog! After that, my vet still wanted to give him the second Lepto shot in the series, and I said no way.
Also wanted to note that my toy poodle's breeder had told me not to give either the Lyme or Lepto vaccines but I decided to go ahead anyway due to the vet's strong support of the Lepto vaccine.

On another note, for very small dogs like toy poodles, it's best to separate the shots, i.e. no more than one vaccine at a time. Every vaccine vial dose is the same size, whether it's for a 3 pound toy poodle puppy or a 100 pound Great Dane!! It's not done by the weight of the dog, one size supposedly fits all. That was shocking to me!
 

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Even where we live in the rural wilderness our vet tells us diseases like parvo are everywhere now. People can't decide their dog will only ever be on their farm so doesn't need vaccs...except for heartworm, that hasn't reached our northern area yet. Rabies and deworming are critical here because of what wildlife may be carrying. They still have to kill your dog here to confirm rabies, if there was any question (maybe your dog just jumped around and someone jumped to the conclusion their child'd been bitten? Could happen). Plus if you want your dog to take obedience lessons or go to a groomer, the poodles need full vaccs. There doesn't seem to be a down side to vaccinating, to me.

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