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Trusting Breeders

6573 Views 38 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  patk, 
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Hello friends, it's been a while since I've posted!

If any of you remember me, I was looking for a spoo a few years ago and finally the stars aligned and I got our wonderful Augie in early 2017 (picture attached!).

I was aware of the litter about a week before I took him home - it was a very quick process - but I had already met the breeder, let's call her Tammy, a few years prior, and she was responsive to e-mails although a little frazzled since it was around the holidays, which I understood. I later saw on Tammy's FB page that she was "helping to place" this litter, which confused me, so I clarified and asked Tammy if she was indeed the owner, and she said "I bred [the dam] and she and the puppies are here in my home. I have whelped and "raised" the litter. I am doing all the care." OK, then- I believed her.

When I got the AKC registration, it had another name listed as the Breeder and Litter Owner... which confused me, sure, but I loved the puppy I got and I have had no problems with him whatsoever so I just ignored it.

Well, now my parents are finally ready for another poodle after the passing of their 15 year old poodle back in December 2017, and their poodle breeder has since retired (they are in Texas). I am the only person they know of who trusts their breeder, so they want to get a puppy from Tammy as well.

Right now Tammy doesn't have anything available, so I started doing my own searches. I found XYZ breeder who has puppies available for the summer - perfect! They are nearby, have been responding to e-mails, etc. My mom insisted on asking if Tammy knows anything about XYZ breeder. So, I asked Tammy if she knew of XYZ breeder and she immediately calls me and basically rats them out as having bad temperaments, health issues, inbreeding, and groomers who have worked for XYZ breeder have quit unhappily. Tammy encouraged me to look up the pedigree of XYZ breeder's puppies and added that I "might have a completely different experience, but I would be very cautious."

What bothers me is I don't know who to trust. Do I trust Tammy, who very frankly told me she has no problems selling her puppies so she loves helping out previous buyers find puppies for their families when she has nothing available, and trust that she has no ulterior motives? (She also told me on the phone, "I wouldn't be saying this if it wasn't *you*" which feels very car salesman-like to me?) Or is this a twisted way to keep me always adopting dogs from her and only her?

How do you trust your breeder when it's in their best interest for you to trust them so they know the exact right things to say? Does anybody else have this problem...? Am I just thinking too hard about it? I'm a little weirded out by the different name on the AKC registration but my poodle turned out wonderfully so does it even really matter who "raised" him...?

I'm very confused and would appreciate any advice :)

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M
pretty much never trust anyone haha.
Try to meet the breeder's dogs, see if you can find puppy buyers and get their impression on their puppies.
Breeders and the show world is all very back stabby. So truly I don't fully trust anyone unless I truly get to know them. Do as much research as you can, try to meet or talk to as many puppy owners as you can. Try to see the breeders dogs and puppies etc and make your decision from there.

Also, if you have facebook you could ask on poodle groups for people to private message you if they have a dog from the breeder (or from similar lines) and what they think of them, or if people have had dealings with the breeder and what they thought of them.
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Mysticrealm said:
pretty much never trust anyone haha.
Try to meet the breeder's dogs, see if you can find puppy buyers and get their impression on their puppies.
Breeders and the show world is all very back stabby. So truly I don't fully trust anyone unless I truly get to know them. Do as much research as you can, try to meet or talk to as many puppy owners as you can. Try to see the breeders dogs and puppies etc and make your decision from there.

Also, if you have facebook you could ask on poodle groups for people to private message you if they have a dog from the breeder (or from similar lines) and what they think of them, or if people have had dealings with the breeder and what they thought of them.
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Good idea to go on FB groups - I think I can go to XYZ Breeder in person pretty soon but I'm so afraid they're going to sound exactly like Tammy..! Guess I just have to go with my gut??
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tammyw
I don’t know - in this situation, I would be very concerned all around. I’ve been going through a VERY stressful time with an unethical breeder right now. Bad temperament on the dog which only got worse with time, very anxious dog, should NEVER have been placed in a family or with multiple pets. Breeder was so encouraging before we got her but any time we presented issues, she deflected it back on us. The dog is now in the care of a local breeder until we figure out what to do with her and Ella’s breeder clearly could NOT care about what happens to her. And we have spent a fortune on a dog we had only four months and will likely never see a dime of it.

So my advice, proceed with extreme caution. Get at least ten names of people you can talk with or text from whoever you decide to go with, and make sure all reviews are glowing. The stress of what we have gone through has been hell - both emotionally and financially. I wouldn’t wish this pain on my worst enemy.

Incidentally, my name is Tammy, haha!
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patk
i don't get the impression that breeder tammy necessarily lied about your dog. sounds like the dam was from her breeding - mated to a dog not of her breeding - and she was raising the litter, which she had agreed with the male dog's owner would be registered under that breeder's name. i would try to check the pedigree before assuming shenanigans. i follow a lowchen breeder who has dogs with akc registered names that point to both kennels involved.


that being said, no reason not to be cautious, when temperament and health matter so much. i do worry about breeders having no restraint about badmouthing other breeders out of the blue. maybe do some googling re the other breeder, check if s/he belongs to any poodle clubs, etc., and try to get an idea of reputation. also keep your ear to the ground about other possible choices. i keep an eye on poodlesonline dot com because they only permit breeders who do health testing on their site. they do seem to have one breeder in texas listed. doesn't mean that's the only breeder in texas who does health testing, because the breeders listed are to a degree self-selected. but you may want to check anyway.
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tammyw
I agree that there is a lot of co-breeding going on and that might be why the paperwork lists a different name.
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Johanna
Goodness! I am really sad to hear about not being able to trust breeders and about people speaking ill of others. I have been really fortunate to have known many "poodle people" who are great friends. I can say that when I was judging I certainly did not please everyone (just the people who won! :)), so I did hear some complaints. That's all in a day's work.
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jojogal001
I don't know if this will help any, but I can tell you, from when I bred rats (some were shown,, most were not). I had a very specific line... marked dumbo rats. They could be different colors, but I never bred a solid line at all.

So if people called me asking if I had a certain color, I would have to say no. If they'd ask about another breeder, I would tell them my honest opinion. Most of which were good. (There weren't but 4 or 5 known breeders in the central to south part of our state. There was one breeder I was very wary of. She wanted to trade me a couple of rats, for 2 of my proven mothers with a great track record all the way around. She had come from the line I developed. I agreed to let her have 1, and on the registration papers, of course, it had to be listed with me as the owner.

But the more I got to know her, I found her to be unethical, greedy and just overall not a good breeder. So if someone asked me about her, I would guide them to reviews about her online, I would say I had gotten to know her personally, and I disagreed with a lot of the things she did, and the way she did them. If they asked for specifics, I wouldn't spill, but give them some questions to ask when they spoke to her, and let them decide for themselves. This seemed to work out well. We never badmouthed each other, we just disagreed on (a lot) of things.

So I believe that one breeder should not just offer discouraging information about another. They certainly should not try to scare you away from them, unless she can prove it. I say go visit the breeder, look at pedigrees and follow your gut and make your own decision. You never know... once you meet her and see her dogs and learn more about her as a breeder, she may just well become your next go-to breeder.

Good luck!
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I have been going through the same thing with the breeder I have been dealing with lying about being full poodles and they were not! I agree with some , take caution and research research


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tammyw said:
I don’t know - in this situation, I would be very concerned all around. I’ve been going through a VERY stressful time with an unethical breeder right now. Bad temperament on the dog which only got worse with time, very anxious dog, should NEVER have been placed in a family or with multiple pets. Breeder was so encouraging before we got her but any time we presented issues, she deflected it back on us. The dog is now in the care of a local breeder until we figure out what to do with her and Ella’s breeder clearly could NOT care about what happens to her. And we have spent a fortune on a dog we had only four months and will likely never see a dime of it.

So my advice, proceed with extreme caution. Get at least ten names of people you can talk with or text from whoever you decide to go with, and make sure all reviews are glowing. The stress of what we have gone through has been hell - both emotionally and financially. I wouldn’t wish this pain on my worst enemy.

Incidentally, my name is Tammy, haha!
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Oh wow, I'm so so sorry to hear about your situation with Ella. That sounds just horrible... why do you think the breeder doesn't care?? Do you think they truly saw it as a financial transaction and are now done with caring?

I will take your advice, I will try to find some references for the XYZ breeder and see what other people think. I've found a few of y'all on Poodleforum praising XYZ so I'm just not sure why Tammy (lol sorry) badmouthed them so much... unless she was trying to keep me from going to XYZ purely for Tammy's benefit.
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patk said:
i don't get the impression that breeder tammy necessarily lied about your dog. sounds like the dam was from her breeding - mated to a dog not of her breeding - and she was raising the litter, which she had agreed with the male dog's owner would be registered under that breeder's name. i would try to check the pedigree before assuming shenanigans. i follow a lowchen breeder who has dogs with akc registered names that point to both kennels involved.
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tammyw said:
I agree that there is a lot of co-breeding going on and that might be why the paperwork lists a different name.
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This is a very good point and I think I will stop feeling weird about the different name. However, I have both of Augie's parents' registered names but can only find the sire on the OFA website (man that thing is confusing to decipher), but not the dam. Now I see that the breeder's name who is listed on Augie's AKC registration breeds goldendoodles.. ??? This weirded me out a little bit but still, I'm not sure!
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poodlemomx2 said:
I have been going through the same thing with the breeder I have been dealing with lying about being full poodles and they were not! I agree with some , take caution and research research


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:shocked: OMG, lying about being full poodles...??? That is terrible. How did you find out the truth??
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patk said:
that being said, no reason not to be cautious, when temperament and health matter so much. i do worry about breeders having no restraint about badmouthing other breeders out of the blue. maybe do some googling re the other breeder, check if s/he belongs to any poodle clubs, etc., and try to get an idea of reputation. also keep your ear to the ground about other possible choices. i keep an eye on poodlesonline dot com because they only permit breeders who do health testing on their site. they do seem to have one breeder in texas listed. doesn't mean that's the only breeder in texas who does health testing, because the breeders listed are to a degree self-selected. but you may want to check anyway.
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I found XYZ on the Puget Sound Poodle Club so they seem legit..? And I've seen a few Poodleforum members mention them when asking about recs in the PNW and have never read anything bad about them. But I will check poodlesonline dot come and see what that says. Thank you.
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jojogal001 said:
So I believe that one breeder should not just offer discouraging information about another. They certainly should not try to scare you away from them, unless she can prove it. I say go visit the breeder, look at pedigrees and follow your gut and make your own decision. You never know... once you meet her and see her dogs and learn more about her as a breeder, she may just well become your next go-to breeder.

Good luck!
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Yes, exactly, the thing that's bothering me is it's one person's opinion that can color an entire experience.. and I don't want to tell my parents that my breeder Tammy said these things about XYZ Breeder because I really do want my parents to get another poodle and am afraid that they never will if they keep getting deterred. They are having some trust issues (to be expected, since their first breeder retired and they don't really know where to start next so they are turning to me) and I don't want to plant a seed of doubt in their minds before they even meet them. Maybe I should meet XYZ first and then later this month we can all visit together..? Just so I can "vet" them out, I guess?
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patk
poodlehatt said:
This is a very good point and I think I will stop feeling weird about the different name. However, I have both of Augie's parents' registered names but can only find the sire on the OFA website (man that thing is confusing to decipher), but not the dam. Now I see that the breeder's name who is listed on Augie's AKC registration breeds goldendoodles.. ??? This weirded me out a little bit but still, I'm not sure!
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yikes. doodles are accepted around here, because the dog had no choice, but doodle breeders are not welcome because they are definitely not trying to improve the poodle breed. so, yeah, big red flags.



i'll be frank, at this point, i would look for another breeder, esp. since you would be sending the dog out of state and it would be harder to mediate any issues. puget sound poodle club has others listed, i think?
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lily cd re
Well I've just been following along until this point. Now I see doodles and I would never recommend supporting someone who breeds doodles of any type since the stock from the two parent breeds are not likely to be the best of the breeds.


At this point I agree with patk on not looking for someone good near you but rather someone good nearer to your parents and will offer the idea of Betty Brown of Donnchada. There are a number of members here with very nice Donnchada dogs.
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patk said:
yikes. doodles are accepted around here, because the dog had no choice, but doodle breeders are not welcome because they are definitely not trying to improve the poodle breed. so, yeah, big red flags.

i'll be frank, at this point, i would look for another breeder, esp. since you would be sending the dog out of state and it would be harder to mediate any issues. puget sound poodle club has others listed, i think?
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I agree with you about doodles and don't understand people paying thousands of $$$ for... I'm not sure what.

Here's the thing though - I think I wasn't clear before - but I'm talking about my poodle Augie and his AKC registration forms being under a different breeder name than Tammy, (which both patk and tammyw said weren't necessarily red flags).. but now I've looked up the name (Nancy Puhich, she is now of Lake Chelan Labradoodles) and I am all kind of weirded out because of the doodle :afraid:. I technically have the AKC# for Augie's sire & dam but I can't find anything about the Dam when I do a search on OFA. So now I'm wondering, is my previous breeder Tammy shady...??
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lily cd re said:
Well I've just been following along until this point. Now I see doodles and I would never recommend supporting someone who breeds doodles of any type since the stock from the two parent breeds are not likely to be the best of the breeds.

At this point I agree with patk on not looking for someone good near you but rather someone good nearer to your parents and will offer the idea of Betty Brown of Donnchada. There are a number of members here with very nice Donnchada dogs.
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Thank you so much for the recommendation, Lily (just checked and it looks like https://www.donnchada.com/ is down for maintenance? Do you have an e-mail address perhaps you could PM me?)- I have read your replies elsewhere on this site and have found you to be extremely knowledgeable, sincere, and kind.

So- I responded above to patk but I think I may have confused everybody... my previous breeder for my amazing poodle Augie, "Tammy", is the person who I am kind of worried is badmouthing just so I will stay with her. She bred Augie but his AKC papers have a different Breeder name listed, Nancy Puhich, and after a deep dive into Google, I discovered Nancy is now of Lake Chelan Labradoodles.

So... I am trying to decide about Tammy's honesty?? I feel a little swindled but my sweet Augie is the best boy - no problems with him whatsoever. I'm very confused :(
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lily cd re
I don't have contact information for Donnchada but Johanna would since her girl Zoe is from Betty. I believe Viking Queen's Poppy also was bred by Betty. PM them and I am sure they will be able to give you contact info.
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Poodlebeguiled
Poodlehatt...I see you're in Bellevue Wa. That's where I grew up. It's my old stomping ground, graduated from Newport High. I got my toy poodles from Valcopy poodles (Dana Plonkey)
Valcopy - The Home of Champions! He doesn't do standards and in fact, last I heard is getting out of poodles and more into toy fox terriers. In fact, while I was still taking his handling class and he was co owner of Matisse, he was starting with toy fox terriers. But he is in the know if you need a recommendation.

Being hooked up with him, I became somewhat familiar with a lot of breeders in the Puget Sound poodle club, joined in with some social activities, Xmas parties etc. He is the president of the club and I met several breeders that are awesome. If you're looking for a standard, look no further. Head on over to Eatonville to see Christine Dallas of Farthing Poodles. https://www.farthingpoodles.com/ (and no, that does not say farting poodles) Everyone misses the (h) Another one who has terrific standards is Lakeridge poodles (Debra Ferguson) in Renton. No expense is ever spared with her dogs. She absolutely doesn't need to scrimp...(been to her house). She does the best of the best for her dogs and her dogs are in her house, treated like royalty from what I could tell at a Xmas party. (and selling dogs is not her business, trust me) poodles, Lakeridge Farm's Standard Poodles Home She got lots of advice from my breeder, I think they shared lines, he mentored her from what I gathered...as she appeared to be sort of beginning this endeavor when I was in the group. I didn't get the full scoop. You can look at Hampton's page on the menu and there will be Dana on the right, a pal of mine, Lil in the middle and Debra on the left. They're handling the dogs for photos.

You can even call Dana for more ideas or if Christine doesn't have any available, she'll point you in the right direction. Super lovely lady!!! Good luck. I like going local rather than long distances. This way if they're a good breeder, they're right there close to help out. I had that with my breeder, Dana, who lives in Lynnwood, (north...almost in Everett) He was about 20-30 minutes from my previous house. Now I'm further north.
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