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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello! I have owned toy poodles all my life and now I want to begin breeding and showing them. I am looking for an exceptional toy white female poodle puppy with full breeding rights. AKC registered and hopefully with a lot of Syntifny Piece of the Rock lines. She would be a family member, along with my rescue toy poodle, Norman. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? Thank you! Jennifer
 

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Hello!

Just a word of caution - you may want to edit your post to remove your phone number. Can't be too safe on the internet.
 

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The three dots in the upper right corner of your post will take you to the site navigation tool, including the option to edit.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Just to clarify - I am having difficulty with this the same way a person cannot get a job because they have no experience--and they have no experience because they cannot get a job! When I contacted Forest Ridge Toy Poodles and asked if she would sell me a Toy White Female with full breeding rights, she replied: "I do not sell my dogs with full AKC (breeding rights) unless one is a reputable show person. Thus, I will have to decline selling you one of my dogs." This is a real catch-22. This attitude on the part of established breeders keeps new people out of it and makes it exclusive. Not nice! And its not in the best interest of the breed.
 

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Yes do take your phone number out of your post. I would approach a breeder with an indication of your interest in breeding and say that you are looking for a mentor. If the person is geographically close you can offer to help handle or do other odd jobs at shows so they can get to know you and once you have a good relationship built then ask about how you can take the next step towards having a foundation bitch.
 

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Agree with Catherine.

The people I know who have started successful kennels (breeding and showing) have a rock solid relationship with the foundation dog's/bitch's breeder who also takes them under wing.

You may want to reach out to a member named ChocolateMillie (rename?) who now breeds standards under the name Apparition to learn how she started her kennel.
 

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You and I are in the same boat LOL. I’ve been looking into getting into showing (not so much breeding) for a very long time and unfortunately, the one person who could’ve been capable of mentoring me for a time bred Labrador retrievers and was literally in the process of moving far far away. So now I’m back to looking and...it’s kind of hard. Finding a mentor in this certain breed is...hard. But I guess it’s because the breed itself is hard to maintain?

I tell you what I’m doing though! Corona has limit me to what I can do, but I’ve joined many forums and Facebook groups at the moment. I’m doing my best to show how interested I am in the breed, showing my knowledge and I’m making friends with some breeders. I’ll wait awhile before asking them to be my mentor. I want a friendly interaction and I want to feel comfortable talking to these breeders too.

So far, I’ve found it hard to contact breeders via phone Or email. No matter how friendly, cheerful or knowledgeable you sound about the breed on the phone or email...a lot tend to ignore you or claim they’re just not showing anymore...but boast about their parent dogs winning something.

It’s hard out here! Lol

I plan on going to shows too in my area.
 

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...This is a real catch-22. This attitude on the part of established breeders keeps new people out of it and makes it exclusive. Not nice! And its not in the best interest of the breed.
Breeders do this for a variety of reasons. The biggest is they don't want their finest poodle puppies in the hands of someone who only wants to breed it, possibly ending up being bred to poorly bred poodles or even to make doodles. Worst case scenario: pup ends up in puppy mill being bred to death in cage where she spends her entire life until euthanized when she's too old to do this anymore.

If a breeder is selling a show puppy, they'd also like for it to be shown to championship. When the owner wins, the breeder "wins" too. His or her name is on show records like infodog.com, so it's a big plus to their reputation since other serious show people well know "that dog/bitch was bred by So n' so!"

The uglier side is hidden: some breeders don't want competition in the show ring. If you use their breeding stock to establish your own line of poodles, those dogs are in competition with theirs. They'd rather sell their puppies as pets and keep only the best for themselves, but will sometimes sell perfectly good show prospects with limited registration and a spay/neuter contract if they have too many dogs they plan to show.

You're going to have call a whole bunch breeders to find one who will give you a chance. Even then, all sorts of things can go wrong. You might find yourself over head b/c it take a great deal of knowledge, physical energy, and having numerous contacts in the business from the best groomers to several good handlers and training. You could have all that plus a bundle of cash to blow on your new hobby, and still end up with the perfect poodle who doesn't want to be a show poodle. Yes that happens too, lol, but not really lol if it happens to you.

Good luck in finding a couple breeders who welcome you hanging out and helping them, or one who will give you a chance. Review any contracts very carefully if they do and ask us about those when/if you get to that point.
 

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If I wanted a show quality standard poodle I could get one, probably, from Annie's breeder. But - I would approach it differently. I wouldnt say "I want a poodle with full breeding rights" . I would say - I want to begin showing and am interested in a show quality dog.

Do you have a dog currently? I believe UKC allows people to show in an altered class - doing that would potentially show people you are willing to put in the time and give you some contacts.

Most likely - your first dog will be a co own situation. Annie's breeder was new, and she was heavily mentored by several breeders. Her first litter, the pick of the litter was owed to another breeder.

Hope that helps, best of luck to you.
 

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I guess I should add... there is another thread on here where someone basically asks - how did that breeder get full breeding rights for those dogs?

If I were a show breeder, and dogs were my life's work - and I had sold someone a dog with full breeding rights, and they went on to become a "THAT" breeder? And all their dogs had my dog's name in their pedigree? I would probably be really embarrassed. So- to avoid that, sometimes some breeders probably take that risk avoidance too far. Cant have any registered dogs in less-reputable breeders lines with their name in the pedigree, if no full registration dogs are sold :(
 

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The uglier side is hidden: some breeders don't want competition in the show ring. If you use their breeding stock to establish your own line of poodles, those dogs are in competition with theirs. They'd rather sell their puppies as pets and keep only the best for themselves, but will sometimes sell perfectly good show prospects with limited registration and a spay/neuter contract if they have too many dogs they plan to show.

You're going to have call a whole bunch breeders to find one who will give you a chance. Even then, all sorts of things can go wrong. You might find yourself over head b/c it take a great deal of knowledge, physical energy, and having numerous contacts in the business from the best groomers to several good handlers and training. You could have all that plus a bundle of cash to blow on your new hobby, and still end up with the perfect poodle who doesn't want to be a show poodle. Yes that happens too, lol, but not really lol if it happens to you.

Good luck in finding a couple breeders who welcome you hanging out and helping them, or one who will give you a chance. Review any contracts very carefully if they do and ask us about those when/if you get to that point.
I feel like assuring yourself that your puppies are going to a good home would be a mentorship sometimes. Instead of telling someone interested how terrible or hard work it can be at times, why not show them? Yeah, it could be a waste of time and some might drop like flies, however, why not try so correct breeding, handling and care for poodles doesn’t die? From what I hear, not in this particular topic or forum alone, showing poodles sounds somewhat like a sport you’ve got to be been born into, otherwise don’t even try. Combine that sort of vibe with the bad sportsmanship within conformation as a whole and you can kind of see how the bad reputation of quality purebred dog breeders builds up or why buyers support bybs easily. That’s just my take on it though. I’m just looking at it from an outsider’s POV.

Also, your first statement reminds me of the “x breed needs new, younger breeders” or “it’s nice to see fresh faces/newer breeders in x breed” sayings I see often.
 

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Not in the show world, but follow through PF and Poodle Variety. If you want a show quality any size, you better be prepared to finish that genetic perfection with a CH, no guarantees you will be accorded breeding rights. Breeding, sharing lines is a prove/trust, show me the health testing etc. That’s why everyone suggests a mentor if you eventually want to become a breeder of that foundation show quality white toy.
 

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"The uglier side is hidden: some breeders don't want competition in the show ring. If you use their breeding stock to establish your own line of poodles, those dogs are in competition with theirs. They'd rather sell their puppies as pets and keep only the best for themselves, but will sometimes sell perfectly good show prospects with limited registration and a spay/neuter contract if they have too many dogs they plan to show."

Goodness! I have been involved with showing poodles (and other breeds to some degree) for about 50 years and have never, ever run into anything like this. When I was breeding, I did try to find show homes for the best puppies and I often did keep the best puppy for myself. I also sold puppies, some of which were show quality, with limited registration and a spay/neuter contract simply because I firmly believe that a first time pet owner almost never has any business breeding. On the other hand, I have given top quality dogs to people I knew would show them (and people have given me dogs to show, too). Everyone I have ever known who breeds dogs is thrilled to sell/place a dog with someone who will show it.
 

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"The uglier side is hidden: some breeders don't want competition in the show ring. If you use their breeding stock to establish your own line of poodles, those dogs are in competition with theirs. They'd rather sell their puppies as pets and keep only the best for themselves, but will sometimes sell perfectly good show prospects with limited registration and a spay/neuter contract if they have too many dogs they plan to show."

Goodness! I have been involved with showing poodles (and other breeds to some degree) for about 50 years and have never, ever run into anything like this. When I was breeding, I did try to find show homes for the best puppies and I often did keep the best puppy for myself. I also sold puppies, some of which were show quality, with limited registration and a spay/neuter contract simply because I firmly believe that a first time pet owner almost never has any business breeding. On the other hand, I have given top quality dogs to people I knew would show them (and people have given me dogs to show, too). Everyone I have ever known who breeds dogs is thrilled to sell/place a dog with someone who will show it.
Want to give me one?! (Kidding! I’m not ready lol)

I think the statement is somewhat or might feel true for those who are outsiders looking in. Well established breeders may not see it or experience it because they have well-established and sought out lines of their own. I also think breeders in the limelight might’ve had a few bad run-ins with those hoping to work underneath them too, adding to it. I can see both sides.
 

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Hello! I have owned toy poodles all my life and now I want to begin breeding and showing them. I am looking for an exceptional toy white female poodle puppy with full breeding rights. AKC registered and hopefully with a lot of Syntifny Piece of the Rock lines. She would be a family member, along with my rescue toy poodle, Norman. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? Thank you! Jennifer
You say you have owned toys all your life, but it seems like you have never shown one? Most responsible breeders are not going to sell a nice potential conformation show puppy to someone they don't know from a hole in the wall for many reasons, especially right off the bat with full registration. Or even a really good performance prospect. If you want to breed your bitch, you should finish her to a breed championship as well as have all health testing done and passed before doing so. Most breeders will only sell a nice conformation prospect on co-ownership and with an agreement that you finish the dog. In poodles, that pretty much means for most people, that they will need a handler due to the extensive coat care and show presentation requirements and because handlers travel extensively to shows where there are majors, etc. and can often get the dogs finished long before an owner/handler could, even if the owner could do the show grooming and coat care in between. Handlers are not inexpensive, and rightly so, and many people are not prepared for the $$$$ it can cost to finish a dog. If a breeder didn't have some control over the dog through a co-ownership, I suspect many people would bail on finishing.

Also, a good breeder has often spent years establishing their lines and even if you finish your bitch and she passes all her health testing, they want some input on who you breed your dog to (which would be really helpful to someone new to breeding as they would have help in selecting a stud that would counter any faults in their bitch, no dog is perfect). As others suggested, you should find a mentor to work with first and spend some time seeing just what really is involved in showing and breeding before you look to find a breeder to sell you a show puppy, which, no matter who you go to, will almost certainly be on a co-ownership. Any breeder that would just sell a newbie a puppy with full registration, no questions asked, is likely not one that has quality dogs.....
 
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Galen's breeders complained about the difficulty of breaking into the poodle scene in our area. They persisted and kept going to shows. Eventually they made friends and found mentors from outside the local area. They still have their foundation bitch, but she is now retired and living with them as a pet. Their mentors got them set up with better quality breeding stock once they had proved they were serious.
 
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