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I should start by saying that we love our pup, regardless of size, and have bonded with him. He is now an integral part of our family and we wouldn't trade him for the world...

We have owned minis in the past, however, this time around, because I am getting older and have lower back problems I opted for a toy poodle, which is what the breeder advertised and sold to us. Moreover, one of our adult children lives a plane ride away and we wanted a pup who could easily travel in the cabin with us, if necessary.

I was shown photos of the parents but now, in hindsight, they were closely cropped photos so what looked like toys may have been minis. Or, perhaps, a toy was bred with a mini and the offspring marketed as a toy?

It was hard to tell when he was tiny but he is growing by leaps and bounds and now at six months old, he is already 10 lbs. and 10 inches tall...

When we walk him in the park, we meet other toys and they are not only smaller in size, but smaller boned. Our pup, to me, as he grows, more closely resembles our previous minis.

My question is, how common is this among breeders, to market a puppy as a toy when it is something else?

Again, we love him dearly, no matter what his final size may be.
 

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That's why you should meet the parents, granted toy poodles can grow over sized all my toys have been just 10"or better problem is some folks believe that what makes a toy is just it's heighth.
I say I've had 6 toys and one mini, my mini was 12" tall 14 pounds, I had both her daughters they were 10" tall and at 10 and 8 1/2 pounds they might be considered toys, but their father was a 14"15 pound mini, their breeder sold them to me as two toys and one mini.
My pups
Baby out of toy parents was 13" tall and 10 pounds
Pia 10 1/2" 8 1/2 pounds I was told she was a toy but she is very long nearly 14"
Beatrice out of toy parents10 1/2" tall 9 pounds

Lenny is from champship lines and was held back as a show prospect 11"tall and 61/2 pounds at 3 years
So yea if your breeder was inter variety breeding you probably could end up with a larger dog
Even my tallest pup Baby who was ended up 13" tall and 10 pounds, at 6 months was 6 1/2 pound and roughly 11 inches or so
 

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At this height and weight, your dog is most probably not a toy, or a toy with poor lineage. If he’s 10 inches high and 10 pounds, that means he probably has short legs and a long back, or very big bones.

As Twyla said, well bred toys will be almost square and have small bones. I have 2 toys, one who’s definitely from 2 toy parents, Merlin, and Beckie, who’s probably a small miniature from two mini parents. They are both around 11-12 inches high, but Merlin weighs 6 lbs and Beckie weighs 8 lbs, as she has a bigger bone structure. It’s really easy to tell the difference between them because of that.

Can you post pictures ?
 

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I have a slightly oversized toy, but he weighs almost exactly 8 pounds and is just under 11 inches. I think he has minis in his "pedigree" (obtained from a pet store overseas, so not only can I not read it, who knows if it's legit or not), which is why he has a slightly larger size. As Dechi said, your dog is more than likely not a toy, unfortunately. It is common among unethical breeders to market something as it is not, but if you go to a legit breeder, they will be very proud to tell you that their minis are minis and their toys are toys, as they put a lot of work into making them so!
 

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I have seen exactly one well bred toy poodle in Miami. I was shocked at how fine boned and long legged she was. That was before I knew much about poodles. Most toy breeders that are breeding to sell to pet owners do not take great care in breeding predictable sizes and temperaments. A true well bred toy poodle will have extremely small litters, probably 2-3 puppies. I think that many disreputable breeders intentionally pair very small sires with larger females so that they get bigger litters and can sell more puppies. The result is a big range in the sizes of dogs produced. And these sorts of breeders always produce stocky dogs with short legs to make them fit into the "toy" height category. I would say a 10 inch tall dog that is 10 lbs does sound like he's probably a stockier with shorter legs.

At this point I would just love your boy for who he is. There is a good chance you will still be able to travel with him. Even small minis can travel fine in planes.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you so much for all of your responses. I appreciate all of the details about various sizes and shapes, breeding,

Yes, we love him so much for who he is (his great personality, vitality, intelligence - we're fortunate in that regard) and he seems to love and trust us, unconditionally. I like to believe that we came into each others' lives for a reason.

I will post a photo after his next grooming as his body structure will be more visible.
 

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Thank you so much for all of your responses. I appreciate all of the details about various sizes and shapes, breeding,

Yes, we love him so much for who he is (his great personality, vitality, intelligence - we're fortunate in that regard) and he seems to love and trust us, unconditionally. I like to believe that we came into each others' lives for a reason.

I will post a photo after his next grooming as his body structure will be more visible.
We love photos! He sounds like a lovely dog.
 

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Hi!

I've got two boys who're toy/small mini crosses. They've both outgrown their parents into about 12-13" for my smaller boy and about 14" for the bigger boy. It could be due to genetics of immediate ancestors or further back in the gene pool.

I couldn't say how common it might be for some breeders
to market a puppy as a toy when it is something else?
but I feel comfortable saying that a conscientious breeder would be very unlikely to do an intervariety breeding, would mention an intervariety breeding if they had done so, and would have a very, very good reason for doing so. I really don't mean that to disparage your breeder because there is this alternate explanation. In my case, I knew what I was getting into.

Several times, toys and mini's have been interbred to improve features. It's not a recommended practice without some very good and very specific genetically beneficial reasons.

First, a growth chart courtesy of Arpeggio Poodles website:
POODLE PUPPY GROWTH CHARTS
I dont hold a lot of stock in the size charts for poodles out there but I have gotten so many requests for them I decided to post some of the better ones here. Remember though, there are NO weight restrictions on poodles only height so really weight doesnt have a lot to do with the poodle. Toys are 10 inches in height and under. Miniatures are over 10 inches to 15 inches. Standards are over 15 inches. This by the breed standards for both AKC and UKC. NOTE: A poodles height is measured from the ground up to the top of the withers (shoulder blades).


HEIGHT CHART FOR TOY POODLES


AGE IN WEEKSHEIGHT IN INCHES
5 WEEKS5 INCHES

8 WEEKS

6 INCHES
12 WEEKS
7 INCHES
16 WEEKS
8 INCHES

20 WEEKS

9 INCHES

24 WEEKS

10 INCHES


Toy poodles are usually finished growing in height at 6-7 months although it may take them a bit longer to fill out.


Here is another height chart for toy poodles.


AGE IN WEEKSHEIGHT IN INCHES
8 WEEKS5 3/4 INCHES
12 WEEKS6 3/4 INCHES
6 MONTHS9 3/4 INCHES


HEIGHT CHART FOR MINIATURE POODLES


AGE IN MONTHSHEIGHT IN INCHES
8 WEEKS8 - 8.5 INCHES
3 MONTHS10 - 10.5 INCHES
4 MONTHS11 - 11.5 INCHES
6 MONTHS13.5 - 14 INCHES


Some miniature poodles will take up to 12 months to finish growing. Some will finish growing in height around 6-7 months but may take a bit longer to fill out
-------------------------

Second, a description of some reasons for the intervariety breeding, which may also account for toys going oversize:
Source: https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk8836/files/files/page/ToyPoodle20191010.pdf

There is a theory that Maltese or Havanese may have been crossed to poodles prior to the 1800’s to produce Toy Poodles as suggested by the silky coats found in early toys.1 The present DNAbased study also boosts this theory. The first Toy Poodles depicted in Europe were usually white or white with markings and used to hunt truffles or act as companions. Small white toys from the European continent are thought to have been the foundation for the breed in both the UK and the US. Toy Poodles (which were white) were established as a breed in the United States as far back as 1896 and the first Toy champion was recorded in 1910. Shortly after that time Toy Poodles were accepted as a breed by the AKC, separate from other Poodles. These early Toys were small (3.5 to 5 lbs.) and did not have the same type as the Miniature and Standard Poodles. The breed standard proposed by the International Toy Poodle Club in Philadelphia was published by the AKC in the official book of breed standards in 1929 and had a required weight maximum of 12 pounds. A height maximum of 10 inches was added subsequently to prevent larger dogs from dominating in shows1.

According to Mackey Irick (“The New Poodle”, 1986),1 many US Toy Poodles can be traced back to CH Happy Chappy, born in 1932 bred by Florence Orsie. Happy Chappy is also the sire of the first colored Toy champion, a silver produced by breeding him to a silver miniature. In 1940, registration papers were revoked for these inter-variety offspring with the argument that these dogs were not true Toy Poodles. Research presented by EE. Ferguson to the AKC resulted in a reversal of this decision, and Toy Poodles were placed within the Poodle breed as a size variety instead of as a separate breed in 1943.

Between the 1940s and the 1980s many Toy to Miniature crosses were done to try to improve the type of the existing Toy Poodles and add new colors. This type of breeding continued until the 1970’s or 1980’s, after which most breeding was kept mainly within the variety and within colors1. Although the result of crossing the original Toys to Miniatures improved head, length of leg, length of body, and coat, it has made it difficult to produce well typed dogs within the desired height of 9.5 to 10 inches at the shoulder. The height issue continues to be one of the biggest challenges for breeders2. The Toy Poodle continues to have several different colors that succeed in the show ring and strict within color breeding is no longer the norm.3 Combinations of red/black, brown/black, black/white, silver/white are more commonly found together in pedigrees than others.

 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hi!

Thanks so much for all the great info! It's so interesting to read about the history of toy poodles and the different kinds of breeding/crosses and the rationale behind it.

I'm thinking back to the toy poodles I saw when I was young and how petite they were. I also remember silvers, blacks, and whites seemed to be the most common colors. Now I see many more reds, browns, creams, and apricots (my boy's color) and they seem to be larger boned. I've seen a pair of black toys recently and they are very petite and small-boned.

Thanks again for the interesting history.

Whatever my boy's background (and ultimate size), I'm thankful he's bright, curious, and friendly. I hope his physical health remains strong for many years to come.

Hi!

I've got two boys who're toy/small mini crosses. They've both outgrown their parents into about 12-13" for my smaller boy and about 14" for the bigger boy. It could be due to genetics of immediate ancestors or further back in the gene pool.

I couldn't say how common it might be for some breeders

but I feel comfortable saying that a conscientious breeder would be very unlikely to do an intervariety breeding, would mention an intervariety breeding if they had done so, and would have a very, very good reason for doing so. I really don't mean that to disparage your breeder because there is this alternate explanation. In my case, I knew what I was getting into.

Several times, toys and mini's have been interbred to improve features. It's not a recommended practice without some very good and very specific genetically beneficial reasons.

First, a growth chart courtesy of Arpeggio Poodles website:
POODLE PUPPY GROWTH CHARTS
I dont hold a lot of stock in the size charts for poodles out there but I have gotten so many requests for them I decided to post some of the better ones here. Remember though, there are NO weight restrictions on poodles only height so really weight doesnt have a lot to do with the poodle. Toys are 10 inches in height and under. Miniatures are over 10 inches to 15 inches. Standards are over 15 inches. This by the breed standards for both AKC and UKC. NOTE: A poodles height is measured from the ground up to the top of the withers (shoulder blades).


HEIGHT CHART FOR TOY POODLES


AGE IN WEEKSHEIGHT IN INCHES
5 WEEKS5 INCHES

8 WEEKS

6 INCHES
12 WEEKS
7 INCHES
16 WEEKS
8 INCHES

20 WEEKS

9 INCHES

24 WEEKS

10 INCHES


Toy poodles are usually finished growing in height at 6-7 months although it may take them a bit longer to fill out.


Here is another height chart for toy poodles.


AGE IN WEEKSHEIGHT IN INCHES
8 WEEKS5 3/4 INCHES
12 WEEKS6 3/4 INCHES
6 MONTHS9 3/4 INCHES


HEIGHT CHART FOR MINIATURE POODLES


AGE IN MONTHSHEIGHT IN INCHES
8 WEEKS8 - 8.5 INCHES
3 MONTHS10 - 10.5 INCHES
4 MONTHS11 - 11.5 INCHES
6 MONTHS13.5 - 14 INCHES


Some miniature poodles will take up to 12 months to finish growing. Some will finish growing in height around 6-7 months but may take a bit longer to fill out
-------------------------

Second, a description of some reasons for the intervariety breeding, which may also account for toys going oversize:
Source: https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk8836/files/files/page/ToyPoodle20191010.pdf

There is a theory that Maltese or Havanese may have been crossed to poodles prior to the 1800’s to produce Toy Poodles as suggested by the silky coats found in early toys.1 The present DNAbased study also boosts this theory. The first Toy Poodles depicted in Europe were usually white or white with markings and used to hunt truffles or act as companions. Small white toys from the European continent are thought to have been the foundation for the breed in both the UK and the US. Toy Poodles (which were white) were established as a breed in the United States as far back as 1896 and the first Toy champion was recorded in 1910. Shortly after that time Toy Poodles were accepted as a breed by the AKC, separate from other Poodles. These early Toys were small (3.5 to 5 lbs.) and did not have the same type as the Miniature and Standard Poodles. The breed standard proposed by the International Toy Poodle Club in Philadelphia was published by the AKC in the official book of breed standards in 1929 and had a required weight maximum of 12 pounds. A height maximum of 10 inches was added subsequently to prevent larger dogs from dominating in shows1.

According to Mackey Irick (“The New Poodle”, 1986),1 many US Toy Poodles can be traced back to CH Happy Chappy, born in 1932 bred by Florence Orsie. Happy Chappy is also the sire of the first colored Toy champion, a silver produced by breeding him to a silver miniature. In 1940, registration papers were revoked for these inter-variety offspring with the argument that these dogs were not true Toy Poodles. Research presented by EE. Ferguson to the AKC resulted in a reversal of this decision, and Toy Poodles were placed within the Poodle breed as a size variety instead of as a separate breed in 1943.

Between the 1940s and the 1980s many Toy to Miniature crosses were done to try to improve the type of the existing Toy Poodles and add new colors. This type of breeding continued until the 1970’s or 1980’s, after which most breeding was kept mainly within the variety and within colors1. Although the result of crossing the original Toys to Miniatures improved head, length of leg, length of body, and coat, it has made it difficult to produce well typed dogs within the desired height of 9.5 to 10 inches at the shoulder. The height issue continues to be one of the biggest challenges for breeders2. The Toy Poodle continues to have several different colors that succeed in the show ring and strict within color breeding is no longer the norm.3 Combinations of red/black, brown/black, black/white, silver/white are more commonly found together in pedigrees than others.
 
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