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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, I live in Los Angeles and am beginning the process or locating a toy breeder. I have had a hard time locating a breeder within 3-4 hours driving in CA that seems good that I have started to look in FL where I am from and have family. There seem to be far more options with a much more reasonable time frame. Any reason that might be? Are breeders in FL less reputable? Or perhaps there is more demand?

If I were to purchase in FL and fly the pup back to CA, is that detrimental to their development..anything worth noting about this?

I also saw this website- any red flags I should be aware of?? I appreciate any insight/feedback you can provide.

 

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Hello and welcome to the forum! I know it can be very hard to wait for a pup when you have puppy fever. But it's good to make sure you are getting the healthiest dog you can from reputable breeders that raise well tempered and structured dogs.

I looked at Tropical Toy Poodles and found some things that would definitely fall in the Red Flag category for me.
  • breeding merle poodles (merle is not a poodle color and is only achieved by mix breeding so they're not pure poodles)
  • use the term "teacup" (not a real poodle size and is usually used as a term by disreputable breeders)
  • lots of litters produced (I easily see four born in the space of a month. Not necessarily indicative of a puppy mill but it does make it less likely that all dogs are properly socialized and individual attention given to pups.)
  • low price points (reputable breeders usually start pricing at $1.5k with most top quality breeders pricing $2-3k)
  • lots of dogs (I count 19 breeding adults and they have lots of puppies currently as well. Most reputable breeders only have a few litters a year)
  • breeding mix breed dogs (I see an expected litter of yorkie poodle mixes)
  • (this is a big one) no mention of health testing for parent dogs. This is very important for a breeder to be responsible and breed healthy dogs! All this talk about "we care so much for the health of puppies" is just blah blah blah if they're not even screening their parent dogs against genetic and physical issues!
  • full registration offered for $200! No reputable breeder would do this. Most good breeders will either require co-ownership to obtain full akc registration or require the dog be titled and health tested. This is just a money grab designed to sell their dogs to backyard breeders and millers.
  • sketchy "health guarantee" where one place it says 6 months on congenital issues and another place it says 1 year. Specifically says they don't cover issues with bite which seems shady.
  • apparent poor conformation of adults. I see a lot with short legs which poodles should not have. It is difficult to analyze beyond that because of poor photos.
Hopefully Rose n Poos will chime in with her excellent checklist for identifying good breeders.

In terms of whether FL or CA is better for breeders... I'm sure there are good breeders in both. I will say that Florida is a bit overrun with sketchy breeders so do take care investigating them. I'm in south Florida and I see so many puppies here with unbelievably bad orthopedic issues. Lots of poor breeding.
 

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I can’t attest to any breeders in California, but I will say that many people fly puppies. Typically you would have some kind of puppy nanny fly with them.

As for the breeder you mentioned, I would not go with them. First red flag is that they advertise that they breed teacup poodles. This is not a variety, and most reputable breeders do not intentionally breed teacups or ‘tiny toys’. Second, they have a Merle sire. There is no such thing as a Merle poodle. That dog has mixing somewhere in his pedigree. Third, look at the legs on many of the dogs. They are bent and very poor conformation-wise. This means that any puppies they produce are likely to have at least some sort of knee issues. In general, those dogs do not look very well-bred. For example, you can see that their second sire on their page, Stevie, has a very small head in proportion to his rather bulky body, although that might be the angle of the camera. And finally... They breed Yorkipoos.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hello and welcome to the forum! I know it can be very hard to wait for a pup when you have puppy fever. But it's good to make sure you are getting the healthiest dog you can from reputable breeders that raise well tempered and structured dogs.

I looked at Tropical Toy Poodles and found some things that would definitely fall in the Red Flag category for me.
  • breeding merle poodles (merle is not a poodle color and is only achieved by mix breeding so they're not pure poodles)
  • use the term "teacup" (not a real poodle size and is usually used as a term by disreputable breeders)
  • lots of litters produced (I easily see four born in the space of a month. Not necessarily indicative of a puppy mill but it does make it less likely that all dogs are properly socialized and individual attention given to pups.)
  • low price points (reputable breeders usually start pricing at $1.5k with most top quality breeders pricing $2-3k)
  • lots of dogs (I count 19 breeding adults and they have lots of puppies currently as well. Most reputable breeders only have a few litters a year)
  • breeding mix breed dogs (I see an expected litter of yorkie poodle mixes)
  • (this is a big one) no mention of health testing for parent dogs. This is very important for a breeder to be responsible and breed healthy dogs! All this talk about "we care so much for the health of puppies" is just blah blah blah if they're not even screening their parent dogs against genetic and physical issues!
  • full registration offered for $200! No reputable breeder would do this. Most good breeders will either require co-ownership to obtain full akc registration or require the dog be titled and health tested. This is just a money grab designed to sell their dogs to backyard breeders and millers.
  • sketchy "health guarantee" where one place it says 6 months on congenital issues and another place it says 1 year. Specifically says they don't cover issues with bite which seems shady.
  • apparent poor conformation of adults. I see a lot with short legs which poodles should not have. It is difficult to analyze beyond that because of poor photos.
Hopefully Rose n Poos will chime in with her excellent checklist for identifying good breeders.

In terms of whether FL or CA is better for breeders... I'm sure there are good breeders in both. I will say that Florida is a bit overrun with sketchy breeders so do take care investigating them. I'm in south Florida and I see so many puppies here with unbelievably bad orthopedic issues. Lots of poor breeding.
Thank you so much for the feedback! A red flag for me was the sheer amount of dogs being breeder. This is a thorough overview and will apply your feedback to other breeders I take a look at.
 

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Welcome to Poodle Forum!

Reviewing the website you provided and then searching the breeder's first and last name brought me to this:


And then this:


It appears she may have operated (or be operating) under multiple business names.

I don't have any experience with toys, so I'll leave the specifics to others. Just keep in mind that lots of people are in the market for puppies right now, so although there might be a bit of a wait, don't get discouraged. It'll be worth it when you find the perfect poodle for you! And we'll be here to chat poodles with you in the meantime. :)
 

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Hopefully Rose n Poos will chime in with her excellent checklist for identifying good breeders.
LOL, you rang?

This is what I look for in a breeder. My requirements don't have to be yours, but it helps in a search to know why these criteria are important.

My Personal Breeder Requirements

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed. They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better. They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own. They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract. They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them. They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them. They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on the website should be provided by breeder before buying

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.


While I'm here, look over the Breeder List. It's far from complete but might have something you haven't seen yet.
I recommend looking thru the multi-state listings also since I'm not deliberately duplicating entries.
The various Poodle Clubs are also excellent resources for getting breeder referrals.

 

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LOL, you rang?

This is what I look for in a breeder. My requirements don't have to be yours, but it helps in a search to know why these criteria are important.

My Personal Breeder Requirements

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed. They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better. They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own. They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract. They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them. They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them. They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on the website should be provided by breeder before buying

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.


While I'm here, look over the Breeder List. It's far from complete but might have something you haven't seen yet.
I recommend looking thru the multi-state listings also since I'm not deliberately duplicating entries.
The various Poodle Clubs are also excellent resources for getting breeder referrals.

See how reliable you are! 😄
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Haha, thanks everyone. Noted that this is an awful option and hopefully serves as a resource for anyone landing on their website in the future. Reached out to Mivida Poodles (Sally Ciraolo) in SD, CA. She is asking 4K for toys...is that normal/reasonable? I have been seeing most other breeders, and even discussion on this forum referencing 1.5-2.5/3K max.
 

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Haha, thanks everyone. Noted that this is an awful option and hopefully serves as a resource for anyone landing on their website in the future. Reached out to Mivida Poodles (Sally Ciraolo) in SD, CA. She is asking 4K for toys...is that normal/reasonable? I have been seeing most other breeders, and even discussion on this forum referencing 1.5-2.5/3K max.
Toys are not what I know best, but I'm pretty sure $4k is out of the normal price range even for a well bred toy with champion titled parents. You often see ridiculously high prices like this from disreputable breeders that breed specifically for rare or non-breed-accepted colors. Often they are the sort of place where they advertise specific puppies that are available on demand. And often they're not health tested or from good breeding stock. Because they tend to sell to people who have puppy fever and don't do proper research. Actually... any breeder that has puppies literally available and ready to go... I would typically avoid. A good reputable breeder is typically in extremely high demand and they generally have waitlists. The way it typically works is you contact them and they tell you what litters they're expecting for the next year, and then they can put you on a list for the litter you are interested in. So usually waiting at least a few months is expected. You can get lucky if a buyer backs out at the last minute and you may find a puppy is available, but it is not the norm.

Right now, there's been a huge surge of puppy buying because people have more free time with covid lockdowns. So puppies are in extremely short supply and disreputable breeders are taking advantage of this by inflating their prices. The reputable breeders don't participate in this, but their waitlists are longer than normal.
 

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I'm about to plant a new thread about the costs of raising puppies for sale over in Poodle Talk for the visibility, fyi.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Please get your puppy from a reputable breeder. The heartache and expense of an inferior pup is too much.
Absolutely! Trying to distinguish the good from the bad is tricky for newbies like me. Thanks for all the insights!
 

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Absolutely! Trying to distinguish the good from the bad is tricky for newbies like me. Thanks for all the insights!
You are smart to seek help. It is really hard to tell when the disreputable breeders know how to deliberately mislead with words. I know how overwhelming it feels. Your pup is out there, even if he/she hasn't been conceived yet.
 

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For some reason the link doesn't take me to the right post. I did do a search in the group under the Tropical Toy Poodles name and found it.

But also, that facebook group is beyond horrifying! 😬
That's weird! But....maybe for the best. Lol. I know there are two sides to every story, but eek.

I really wish I'd found Poodle Forum when I was searching for my poodle puppy. It's seriously such a wonderful resource.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
LOL, you rang?

This is what I look for in a breeder. My requirements don't have to be yours, but it helps in a search to know why these criteria are important.

My Personal Breeder Requirements

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed. They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better. They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own. They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract. They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them. They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them. They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on the website should be provided by breeder before buying

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.


While I'm here, look over the Breeder List. It's far from complete but might have something you haven't seen yet.
I recommend looking thru the multi-state listings also since I'm not deliberately duplicating entries.
The various Poodle Clubs are also excellent resources for getting breeder referrals.

This is amazing. Thank you!!
 

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Haha, thanks everyone. Noted that this is an awful option and hopefully serves as a resource for anyone landing on their website in the future. Reached out to Mivida Poodles (Sally Ciraolo) in SD, CA. She is asking 4K for toys...is that normal/reasonable? I have been seeing most other breeders, and even discussion on this forum referencing 1.5-2.5/3K max.
My breeder is a bit past Santa Barbara, let me know if you want her info. (Also, I feel the urge after this past week experiences🤦🏻‍♀️ to suggest you start brushing your toy poodles teeth on a consistent basis from day 1, I really wish I had know that when I got mine).🙂
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
My breeder is a bit past Santa Barbara, let me know if you want her info. (Also, I feel the urge after this past week experiences🤦🏻‍♀️ to suggest you start brushing your toy poodles teeth on a consistent basis from day 1, I really wish I had know that when I got mine).🙂
Haha noted about tooth brushing. Yes, I'd love to know who you went with in the SD area!
 
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