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This video me sad. We have to be sooo careful how we speak to our poodles, they understand so much and are so sensitive.

This one, however, has a human-like response that just blows me away. I'm wondering, what did he do? The owner isn't even yelling at it, but some sort of scolding is going on, and the poor little poodle looks like a guilty, scared child who got caught stealing candy or peeing on himself.

It's like it's a mutant poodle with the mind and emotions of a human. To be a dog and to be that intelligent yet powerless seems a hell no dog should ever have. I'm all for 'smart', but too smart is not a good a thing in a dog.



And here's the news story (link).
 

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Oh boy, I'm sorry but this is so dumb. The dog is terrified. Look at those whale eyes. It looks like it is harnessed to be in the standing position, or it has been trained to do that. I hate this video, makes me feel very sad.
 

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Some of the Chinese/Japanese videos I have seen with dogs trained to do 'human' behaviors have the dogs looking very stressed or scared or harmful to them physically ............I don't know what training methods they use, but I'm betting they are not positive or even balanced type training! So sad...........
 

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I am not going to watch the video - it will make me upset for the poor little dog, I know.

Most dogs look "guilty" when they are offering appeasing behaviours in a situation they know makes their owners cross. I had a good example when toilet training Poppy - I tried very hard not to get cross at the accidents (after all, they were my fault) but was rather obviously grumpy about them. Then came the day a tipped bottle of shampoo left a large pool on the bathroom floor. Human on hands and knees with cloth - uh-oh! I looked round to find both dogs watching me from my bed, with expressions that very definitely asked me not to be cross - another lesson learned!
 

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The dog looks like it is wearing those boots for the first time, and wants to keep as few paws on the ground as possible. I'm not sure that is what is actually going on though.

I know poodles have a reputation of being smart, sensitive, and understanding but if I try and scold Willard, he just looks back at me with a big dopey smile.
 

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This poor dog looks terrified. I don鈥檛 know where this video is from but in some countries, making dog walks on their hind legs is fashionable and some people will hit their dogs to get them to do so.

It looks like this dog is afraid of being hit.

It鈥檚 distressful to watch.
 

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This is incredibly sad, the poor dog.

I noticed when I was in China that many of the dogs were dressed in fancy outfits and wore boots on their paws. I didn鈥檛 see any standing on their back paws. Toy and miniature poodles and other small dogs are popular.

OTOH in South Korea I don鈥檛 remember seeing any clothes or boots on their dogs.
 
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This is incredibly sad, the poor dog.

I noticed when I was in China that many of the dogs were dressed in fancy outfits and wore boots on their paws. I didn鈥檛 see any standing on their back paws. Toy and miniature poodles and other small dogs are popular.

OTOH in South Korea I don鈥檛 remember seeing any clothes or boots on their dogs.
I am glad you mentioned this Skylar. This is in Mandarin. There are a lot of toy poodles in China. Most small dogs I've seen are spoiled city dogs. These viral "cute" videos look borderline abusive because it is not good for their hips. When I was a child, I used to get upset about going to China where puppies were sold on the side of the road in cages. There is a lack of animal rights in China because people weren't permitted to have pets until recently. The situation has improved a lot.

Dogs should not have to hurt themselves for people's entertainment. Vita, I know when you started the thread, it was well-meaning. Unfortunately, I'm afraid most people are sad when they see this.
 

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This video me sad. We have to be sooo careful how we speak to our poodles, they understand so much and are so sensitive...

...It's like it's a mutant poodle with the mind and emotions of a human. To be a dog and to be that intelligent yet powerless seems a hell no dog should ever have. I'm all for 'smart', but too smart is not a good a thing in a dog.
...These viral "cute" videos look borderline abusive because it is not good for their hips... There is a lack of animal rights in China because people weren't permitted to have pets until recently. The situation has improved a lot.

Dogs should not have to hurt themselves for people's entertainment. Vita, I know when you started the thread, it was well-meaning. Unfortunately, I'm afraid most people are sad when they see this.
I wasn't trying to entertain anyone with this video, maybe you missed the part where I said it made me sad, and my point has to do with over-the-top intelligence and sensitivity of some poodles. When I watched the poodle in the video, I thought, My God, have some of them intellectually evolved?

That would not be a good thing. It's too human, so human that it hurts to see it placed with an owner who doesn't seem to understand this.

It's like a dog, even a poodle, "should be" more like this, at least to some degree:

...I know poodles have a reputation of being smart, sensitive, and understanding but if I try and scold Willard, he just looks back at me with a big dopey smile.
When I say "No bark" to Bella, she doesn't act like that video poodle. She runs to me where I pet her and say, "It's okay, no bark, no one is out there to worry about." And she wags her tail and is reassured. She does not up on two legs like a human with facial expressions of guilt and fear. If she did, I think I'd freak out. And if she started talking, well... I dunno.

But that other little guy looks like if you left him alone in front of a computer he'd start a blog. Can you imagine a mutant poodle genius? Everything would be up for discussion and debate and end in tears by one or both of you. Your poodle might even hire an attorney.

But silliness aside, the genius poodles makes me consider how powerless a dog is with their owner b/c you can see it so clearly with that one. It gives me shudders because not all poodle owners are sensitive.
 

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I broke my iPad a few nights ago. This thing has fallen off the stand a million times but of course it breaks now. It was pretty sudden and caught me off guard. I鈥檝e been so scattered brained and forgetting random things that are said to me moments before. Sorry for misreading the thread.


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Even a well trained dog does not know the actual meaning of words like sit or down or come. They have been taught to associate a certain sound with a certain action. Poodles are smart in that they can easily learn many such associations, but unlike a human child who will decide to sit on the floor if they are told to sit and there is no chair available because they can generalize and conceptualize things that relate to the meaning of sit they do not know that sit means sit. I could have taught my dogs that the word apple was the sound to associate with sit. I think it is dangerous to anthropomorphize about dogs (or other animals) because we will then expect them to be able to make human type decisions about how they should act.


That said I won't watch the video either because I don't think I need to to have a sense of what it is about and I also don't want to dignify it with adding another view to its tally. Just from the frame that I see in the link I can see that the dog is very upset and fearful, not guilty. Dogs don't feel guilt. They can be conditioned by repeated punishments to offer behaviors that look like guilt to appease their abusers. I hear a loud voice, so the next thing is going to be getting hit or some other punishment, so I am going to look small and scared and hope I can avoid the punishment this time. Repeat that cycle enough times and now it is a trained response, but it is not an expression of guilt. If you really need to correct a dog for a mistake you have three seconds from the time the mistake was made, longer than that and the dog has no idea why you are yelling or getting ready to kick them or whatever you are going to do or hopefully more gently show them what sit is supposed to mean.



Stop anthropomorphizing! That is just ridiculous. It is tempting and easy to fall into that thinking when we see dogs doing things that indicate human understanding of complex ideas, but it is also not helpful to dogs to ascibe traits to them that they do not possess. This is not to say that I don't think dogs sense our emotions or that they don't have emotions of their own, but we link too many behaviors to much more complex emotions than we should sometimes. Appreciate your dog for what it is, a dog, not a little person wearing a poodle suit.
 
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Mfmst, I read your NYT link, and boy oh boy, how studies differ! That one was from the U. of Exeter in Britain. Last year "...Researchers at Vanderbilt decided to put the age old debate to the test objectively, studying the number of cortical neurons in the brains of a number of animals. The results? Canines had a significantly higher number than felines."... (link)

I do think that dogs have a consciousness in the really smart dogs like many poodles, and that they have an awareness as well as feel and are able to express those feelings in ways that we recognize as human. It may be as simple as that of a toddler or child, but it's not hard to see in some dogs.

Catherine, you mentioned they don't feel guilt. A dog I had decades ago had never had an accident, until one day she did. I was so surprised I said, "Sunshine, you peed on the floor???" It was not in a punitive or angry voice and I had never raise my voice to her b/c she was such a good dog.

She turned her head away and her lips actually trembled. She looks so embarrassed. I said, "Aw, girl, it's okay." She looked relieved.

Also in my 20s, I visited a friend who had two mini poodles that just had a haircut. "They look ugly now," I remarked casually.

Those two dog instantly began sulking. My friend whispered, "Don't say that, they're very sensitive." I had to reassure them that they were beautiful. It was weird.

I guess by your definition and that of some other people, I anthropomorphize. I can't help it, it's what I've seen. Some have a level of consciousness that's a reminder that humans, without our thumbs, may not have evolved to build tools and feel that it's all about us.

I wish you'd watch the video. You can't walk away thinking how that poodle was reacting just like a human child. It is eery, never seen anything like it before. Or maybe you can, if so, we have to agree to disagree.
 

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I anthropomorphize in small ways every now and again, but doing it commonly I think dis-serves nearly all dogs because they are dogs, not people. I also do think many dogs are very sensitive and that they are often very good at reading signals we are not aware we are sending. I think your dog who looked upset about your remark following finding pee on the floor heard something subtle in your tone or saw something in your body language that worried her and that she relaxed when you relaxed. Nothing more, nothing less. Same with the poodles with Perhaps not great hair cuts.


The richness of our relationships with dogs comes from our recognition that they aren't little people and that we need to look for new and innovative ways to communicate our meaning to them and to see and hear what they are communicating to us all of the time.


I just cannot watch that video because from that first frame it looks like it is an exploitation of the dog that I don't want to participate in or support in any way.


And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing when done civilly my friend.
 
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Poor guy, he looks terrified in the video. This video made me remember another video I saw of how some awful owners trained their poodles to walk on two legs by beating them. It breaks my heart to see what some people would do to get views/likes.
 

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I anthropomorphise a lot - as you know from Poppy's posts! But I think it is very important to bear in mind that while there are emotions and traits that humans and canines share, they are not little humans in fur coats, and to treat them as such is to both underestimate them and to do them a huge disservice (I know you are very focussed on your dog's needs, Vita, and am not for a moment suggesting you do this!). I could get a display of "guilt" from Poppy at any time with a change of body stance and a few words in a half-way cross voice - she has never been physically punished, but her temperament is such that she will use propitiatory behaviours at the first hint of trouble. But if she does so I know she is feeling anxious and upset, and move at once to reassure her.

Show me a video of a dog playing alone with a sledge, or working a disaster site to find a trapped child, or just running for the sheer joy of running, and I will watch it again and again, but not one of a frightened pup bullied into being "cute".

Why is it "cute" to film a puppy forced to pretend to be a child, when it would be abusive to film a child forced to pretend to be a puppy?
 

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fjm your last point is so important!



We control what is on the internet in some meaningful ways. When a YouTube video goes viral or a blog becomes wildly popular it is because we are looking. If we don't look, it doesn't come to the top and it doesn't become influential. We should all think before we watch.
 
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