Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,645 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
When a litter of puppies is born, the mother tends to them and teaches them the ways of being a dog. As the human mother or father you expose them to the human world so that they integrate well when they are older and ready for their new homes. One of the things I'm discovering is that there is an important part of the time the breeder spends with their puppies and that's individual time. I've heard it over and over as I talk to people, that it's very important to take a little time and remove the puppy from it's pack of littermates and get to know the puppy one on one. The puppy learns to develop a relationship to it's human pack member and you get to know the individual puppy for better home placement later.

How important do you feel this one on one time with individual puppies is and is it something that's important enough to bring up to future breeders? If you do this (and I'm not referring to just grooming on the table) what sort of things do you do with the puppy?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,972 Posts
I think it's very important. The breeder I've been talking to, mentioned that her grandchildren spend a lot of time w/ her puppies and her granddaughter usually names them all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
I think it's important with any socialization.
From a Foster point of view, I do get some dogs that have little to no socialization with people at all. That one-on-one time is vital from puppy to adulthood. Anything from a cuddle on the couch, to basic obediance in the back yard, to leash-training or learning that car rides are fun. When anything is brand new and never experienced, that one-on-one is very important.

So I can see how it's an important tool for Breeders to use with their litters, too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
145 Posts
I always felt it was important to spend as much time with each puppy alone and as a group as possible. I only had one litter, it was born in the summer when the kids were off school and I was working less than normal so it wasn't that difficult. I would even recruit neighbors and friends of my kids to come drop in whenever they could to spend time with the puppies. This is especially good to do with a variety of people, young, old, short, tall, black, white, male female. This way puppies aren't terrified when they see something they have never seen before. We always alternated having different puppies out and spending time with each one, which I do believe leads to proper socialization. I would walk in and see random people playing with my puppies or sitting on the couch cuddling. It was kind of funny in a way, but who doesn't love a puppy?

However, bigger breeding programs with multiple litters often do not have the time nor manpower to devote as much time as someone with one litter. They generally work to socialize the puppies through routine handling and care, and although the time spent doing so may seem paltry or less than a buyer with an ideal vision may like, I have to say that most of the puppies I have seen come out of bigger breeders seem to be perfectly well socialized and adapt quickly. Of course, these dogs are from excellent breeding programs who have worked years to develop the sound temperament. These puppies adapt quickly and well, even though you may think they wouldn't.

I routinely get compliments on how well socialized my dogs are (my two adults who came from larger breeding programs and my puppy, who I bred). It is kind of like when someone compliments your shirt. It makes you feel good, but you can't take all the credit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
PLEASE everyone remember that the puppy's MOST important period for socialization occurs from weeks 12-18. If you buy a puppy who is older than this or is late in this window from a breeder, you should do *extra* homework to ensure the puppy is well adjusted. For your puppies you bring home before or at the early points of this window, socialization is largely up to YOU:) Take that puppy everywhere, turn on the vacuum, invite everyone over. It is such an impressionable and tender age!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,956 Posts
I was just talking to my breeder about this last night as a matter of fact!! I was explaining how well socialized and balanced Lucybug is. She's as perfectly happy to be at my feet or on my lap as she is calm and confident when she's totally alone. I know that when puppies are first removed from their litter it can be a little like culture shock when they're expected to sleep alone in a crate at night, or during the day when the new owners are at work, etc... Lucy integrated so seamlessly that I know the breeder spent lots of time with her one-on-one and helped her be confident in many situations.

For an example, I let Lucy out into the backyard this weekend by herself a few times (usually she goes out with my other dogs) I waited just inside the door since I didn't have my shoes or coat on, and watched her as she played in the yard. She was AWESOME!! She found a tennis ball and played catch with herself without once wondering where everyone else was! When she was done doing her "thing" and playing a bit, she came to the door and sat down, confident that she would be able to come in since she was ready.

I've fostered dogs who could not be in a room (or yard) alone or they'd go nuts! If I would have tried staying inside my home with some of these foster dogs, they would've been whining, jumping and scratching at the door as soon as they realized they were alone.

I'm so happy with my puppy and I know that whatever my breeder did with these kids, it WORKED!! She's happy, confident, well-socialized and totally comfortable in her own skin! Love her, love her, love her!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,645 Posts
Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
PLEASE everyone remember that the puppy's MOST important period for socialization occurs from weeks 12-18. If you buy a puppy who is older than this or is late in this window from a breeder, you should do *extra* homework to ensure the puppy is well adjusted. For your puppies you bring home before or at the early points of this window, socialization is largely up to YOU:) Take that puppy everywhere, turn on the vacuum, invite everyone over. It is such an impressionable and tender age!
This isn't true. I've read time and time again that the most important age is before 12 weeks. I'll go and get links and make sure to post them.

Here are a few.
http://texasvetbehavior.com/Socialization_in_Puppies.pdf
http://www.portarthur.com/tbsar/puppy_socialization1http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/earlysocialization.html
http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/sochow2.html
http://www.etenerife.com/dogs/puppy_socialization.htm
http://www.mcneillabradors.com/Puppy Socialization.htm
http://www.norfolkterrier.org/articles_p-s/puppysocialization01.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
My puppies are handled multiple times a day by multiple people from the day that they are born.

I work individually with puppies on basic manners, basic obedience, bite inhibition, grooming and hand stacking.

By the time a puppy goes home they will have been shaved twice, bathed and dried multiple times (puppies can get gross very quickly), and they know how to stand relatively quietly on a grooming table when they are being brushed. They also typically know sit, down, come (very informal recall) and how to do a simple retrieve.

This is why at 8 weeks I am sooooooo happy to see them go to their new homes. It is a lot of work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,037 Posts
Yes it is most puppy buyers have no idea what goes into raising a litter. I groom each puppy starting at three weeks as well as bathing . They are well on their way to being housebroken , last litter never had visable poo in the pen. After Mom was done cleaning up after them the backyard took over . I never had to use newspaper with this last litter .This made the bathing way easier. . I must admit that I do not teach sit.But they do know how to retrieve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,645 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
You know I talked to a breeder that was doing individual time with her puppies so that by 8 weeks they all knew how to potty in the yard. It's important that each one receive praise upon completing that because if they are always together as a group how do you praise each one when they go?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,155 Posts
Socialization should begin from the day one . Puppies should be handled daily and since week 6 grooming sessions should start with "mock" shaving. Little paws should be handled regularly and early human contact and "imprinting" is absolutely essential.

Puppies should be exposed to all everyday sounds of the household and meet all kind of people. Once they are 12 weeks , extra things are included for further socialization , but it is not any more or less important than early part of socialization.

Regardless of all efforts - some dogs are just BORN shy or extra dominant and one can "train out" those traits but one can not "train out" genetics and dogs that are not with optimal temperament should not be bred or even carry Ch title since they DO NOT REPRESENT THE BREED .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
145 Posts
Individual opinions on a dog's qualities are very subjective, and while perhaps a particular aspect of a dog is not one individual's "ideal", that does not mean necessarily they are outside breed standard. I personally like to see how a dog performs in the ring before deciding whether or not they are "showable".

I do not buy into the belief that dog shows and Ch titles should be reserved only for the perfect examples of the breed standard, for this perfect dog does not exist. I think this is one of the points that discourages amateurs from ever entering the ring. I believe that dog showing should be fun and people encouraged to show if they have a nice dog. I have two really nice dogs, however they are not "perfect". Maybe the tailset is too low on my bitch for some people's taste. Some people, especially those who lack experience, may consider it not within the breed standard, or at least not the "preferred" tailset. She finished her CH title quickly however, despite this imperfection. Should I have not pursued a title due to someone else's opinion regarding her tailset? Should she not carry the Ch title because her tail set is not ideal according to some people?

I enjoyed showing my bitch and now am enjoying showing my male, whether I finish him or whether a professional has to finish him for me. It is fun and creates a bond between myself and my dogs that is much stronger than it would have been had I not shown either of them. I have met wonderful people who have become dear friends who have helped me along the way. Should I be denied this because my dog is not "perfect"? I do not buy into the theory that the ring is reserved for the elite few that have what the the majority considers to be a "perfect" breed specimen. If everyone who showed dogs refrained from showing a particular dog because of someone else's opinion of a perceived flaw, the dog show world would cease to exist and we would have very, very few Champions. Breed standards are subjective. That's why one day you can get dumped and the next be put up in the Winners ring. Where is the sense in that? Yet it happens every day.

Dogs who possess obvious disqualifying traits will not be pointed and never will finish. Other dogs may not have the preferred traits, but have acceptable traits. These are finishable, though it is harder. Then there are other dogs whose qualities fall in between preferable and merely acceptable simply based on the preferences and subjective evaluation of the judge at hand. If I had listened to every negative comment about my bitch that was handed out by armchair experts, I would have given up showing her long before she earned her fist point. Because their opinions are just that, personal opinions that are subjective to their own personal interpretations of the written standard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,155 Posts
You have very good points Elite. There is no such thing as a "perfect dog" , especially when we talk about physical features of a minor effect on overall balance and carriage. Tail positioning, ear leather length, hind leg extension, gait ... those are all "cream and the cherry on the top " :)

Those things can all fall close to what an image of a perfect poodle looks like and make a Ch that particular showing, or the same dog can get NONE points in the more competitive ring with 30 dogs competing that day. Any kind of judging and competition where humans subjective judgment is involved is inherently "subjective" .

However, Ch title does not automatically makes dog worthy of reproducing. If his/her hips hardly passed preliminary or he/she has temperamental problems - even if dog is just "goofy" - top breeders would not use that dog in their breeding program. They would not even show a dog that is "perfect" in looks but is not temperamentally what that breed should be.

It is wonderful to be involved with ones dog and there are many ways one can be - so many sports except showing. All of those activities would offer same and if not even more of engagement with ones dog and dog loving community too.

It is wonderful that you found sport that you enjoy so much and you do believe in your dogs and love them - there is no doubt about that. You have a great drive to achieve the best in the show ring and it is very commendable. And yes, you will hear many advices and even some malicious ones on the way unfortunately but it is ultimately up to your high standards to discriminate of what is good breeding stock and what not.

On the long run - THAT will elevate you above the rest - or not ...

Wishing you and your dogs all the best :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Critical socialization period is birth - 16 weeks. During that time, the doors are wide open for all new experiences. After 16 weeks the door slams shut. You can pry the door open and shove information in, but it's never going to be as easy or as good as it would have been prior to the 4 month mark.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Critical socialization period is birth - 16 weeks. During that time, the doors are wide open for all new experiences. After 16 weeks the door slams shut. You can pry the door open and shove information in, but it's never going to be as easy or as good as it would have been prior to the 4 month mark.
Agreed. If I remember correctly from child psych classes at university (this is going back a while now), the critical development period for kids is up to 2 years. I guess every living being has a period where it's more open and able to process new experiences!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
145 Posts
Agreed completely Wishpoo. I don't show my dogs for breeding purposes. Although my bitch was bred, it was done so at the request of her original breeder, and experienced breeder and well respected person who knew what they were doing. Since I am NOT a breeder, I followed their tutorial to a T and as a result, got a wonderful litter of beautiful puppies, 5 of the 8 are conformation worthy and did receive the assets from each parent while leaving out the weaknesses. The other three seemed to receive all of the recessive genetics but were wonderful pets and are all doing well in their new homes. It was a wonderful experience, but nothing I plan on repeating. Nor do I plan on breeding my male when and If (please LORD) he finishes. I hear that once you breed a male, they are never quite the same loving pet however others have disputed that. I love him dearly, but am not in the business of breeding dogs. I do it for fun. There is a sense of accomplishment with growing and maintaining the coat and exhibiting the beautiful presentation and to know I can hold my own with the professionals. So far, about ten Reserves are all I have to show with the male. But I have earned the respect of some of even the most stand-offish handlers out there.

I have many friends and aquaintances who show for fun and not for ultimate breeding. The puppy selling business is frought with peril and responsibility. I also know things go wrong and if I were to lose my pet bitch due to a misfortunate health malady brought on by pregnanacy or childbirth I would rue the day of breeding forever. I have been approached by many people who saw my puppies to breed my bitch again. But I had her quietly spayed last week.

I have known some long time professionals and top breeders to show and finish dogs they knew they would never breed due to whatever reason. They do it to increase the rankings on their top producers. If they can finish the dog, it isn't my business to tell them they shouldn't!:) And they are always VERY pleased when an owner of a puppy shows a dog they bred. Good advertising and a not to their program.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,645 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Being knowledgable in dog behaviors, puppy temperament testing, and maybe bio sensoring is an important part of raising a litter of puppies. There are a lot of dog behaviors that are so subtle that most can miss them and some just strike them off as being "baby" behaviors. I disagree and so do many long time breeders. Dogs have a very definite way of communicating with their body language to each other and we have to learn a bit of that language or how do we know what they are even saying to each other or us? That goes for puppies as well. First and foremost the puppy is a pet, (regardless whether they are physically fit for conformation showing or not) then that puppy can perform in an avenue that suits the dog and the owner. They don't all turn out with the same temperament and it's good to have the ability and the experience to know the difference and be able to positively choose the right puppy for the family.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,155 Posts
Elite - I must say that I am more than impressed with your rationale :smile: and with decisions that you made regarding spaying and taking the control in your hands and not letting anybody telling you of what is the best for you or your beloved dog when you know in your heart what is actually the best !!!! Not many would have the guts, or knowledge , or even care ! So I take my hat off !!!

Sometimes "new people" actually make better decisions and more objective ones and non-biased since they have nothing in stake but the interest of their own dogs !!!! Some "renowned" breeders loose the compass over the time, unfortunately, and they start living vicarious lives through their dogs that all of the sudden become a profitable commodity and the "hall of fame" venue and nothing else :crying: Tests results all of the sudden become "not necessary" and dogs are kept in kennels with little or no real human interaction, and allll kind of arrangements come into play just to have 50 Ch titled dogs and that is all that starts to matter in the whole scheme - and than a "sport" becomes a "foul play" :fish:

You are obviously very intelligent and you do stand by your word and by your dogs and decisions that you made so far regarding your female and about not breeding male puppy are all completely ethical !!! Maybe you should reconsider your decision of not being a breeder at all - maybe you just need to believe in your own instincts and intuition more and seek advices outside of the immediate circles since they might have their own agenda involved and their own interest ahead of yours. Poodle world definitely needs new , honest and full of integrity generation of breeders and you have a potential to make a difference.

Wishing you and your dogs all the best :)
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top