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I think you can do better.

They are not showing their poodles in conformation or any other dog sport which would prove they are breeding for quality. They are doing genetic testing, but not the panel of tests is recommended by The Poodle Club of America such as hip dysplasia or yearly eye exams. Health Concerns - The Poodle Club of America

She is selling mini x toy puppies - not a common or recommended breeding unless there is a specific need and done carefully. It looks like she is just breeding her males with her females. Quality breeders search for the right mate to improve their dogs and to add genetic diversity.

Adding - here is an excellent sticky to read before buying a puppy. Buying a puppy safely - the basics
 

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Hi 919joise919. I wouldn't, for the follow the reasons.

1) Their stud is called "AKC Torch". This is not the dog's legal name and a knowledgeable breeder who sells puppies wouldn't do this. They probably mean that Torch has AKC papers. He is listed as weighing 11lbs and 14 inches tall. As a toy, he'd be oversized, as a mini, he's undersized.

2) Torch is currently listed as the stud for another oversized toy / undersized minipoo called AKC Lillie. He is also listed as the stud for their small standard called AKC Wind in the Willows. This is large red flag.


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Breeders who strive to improve the breed do not cross-breed toys with minis or minis with standards. They don't use dogs or sell puppies with breeding rights that are under or over sized. They strive to meet the poodle breed standard. You can read the AKC definition of this here and for illustrations, here.

3) Good breeders who have the time also show to championship or do AKC performance activities with their dogs. We have two sections of this on Poodle Forum, see the main forum page and scroll down to Performance and Showing. This is true whether we're talking about poodles, poms, or any other purebred. When they plan for a litter, at least one of their dogs (or the stud they contract to use) will have earned it's championship.

Championship isn't just about ribbons: it's an acknowledgment that the dog meets the standard of its breed as close as possible. Neither of this breeder's poodles are listed as being involved with performance activities or are champions. Both would be disqualified from AKC conformation shows based on their size alone.

4) Vet care or death of pup. The breeder says "You have forty eight (48) hours from the time of purchase to have your puppy examined by a licensed veterinarian." That's not much time.

The contract also says, "If your puppy is found to have any life threatening or genetic defects, you must notify seller immediately and provide to the seller a written veterinarian's statement that includes the complete diagnosis of the puppy's condition within 24 hours of diagnosis. We reserve the right to have the diagnosis verified by another veterinarian of our choice and/or require you to have specific tests run on the puppy to verify the diagnosis."

If you're in California and she's in Illinois, what are you going to do if she demands her local vet run tests after your own vet ran tests? I think that's unreasonable.

Also problematic, the contract says, "If my puppy dies and I request a replacement puppy, I understand that I must have a necropsy performed by a State Laboratory, at my expense to determine the cause of death. My puppy will be replaced or refunded, only if the death was caused by a covered genetic problem or an illness which my puppy had at the time of purchase."

Do you know of a "state laboratory" that can drop everything and do an autopsy in her time frame? Or how much they charge? And why would this be necessary if your vet diagnosed the cause of death? It's unreasonable in my view. By the time you go thru all that you've paid hundreds of dollars more. There also puppy lemon laws in various states, but lotsa luck in getting back your money from a different state if your pup has a serious problem or dies. These also don't cover every situation or breeder.

5) DNA testing. The breeder says Torch had a full panel of testing from Paw Print Genetics (PPG) and was clear of genetic conditions. This is good. However there's no mention of testing on the females. It doesn't mean it hasn't been done, but for you and anyone else considering the purchase of purebred, ask to see proof.

In this case, I didn't see a link to PPG on her site. If you follow through, ask before putting down a deposit. Also ask if her small standard female has had hip xrays to rule out hip dysplasia, and if her large toy has had her knees checked for luxating patellas. Good breeders will always have had this done and have proof.

6) Pricing. The breeder asks for a non-refundable deposit of $200 to be placed on a wait list and an additional $300 when the pup is selected at five weeks old. The final and total price is $2K per pup.

Joise, for that much money, you can purchase a fine poodle puppy from a breeder that meets the standard of the breed, that is intimately familiar with the ancestry, and one or both of the parents are champions. Their sires and dams will have had extensive health testing and the breeder will won't hesitate to share this info on their site or with you. You also don't have to pay for travel across half the country and worry that the aforementioned red flags could become a problem.

If you wonder about where you can get a pup in your state, see this thread on PF, and early on, check out the Poodle Club of America which will list clubs in your area that give referrals. Also look into joining Facebook's private group, Litters From Health Tested Poodles. You will see some gorgeous poodles and pups there, and one of them could become yours.

And feel free to start another thread titled something like, "Looking for a white/red/silver/black toy/mini/standard poodle pup in (your state)"

Good luck!
 

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I might add to Vitas post a little story...My neighbor purchased a yorkie from a similar type breeding situation. The dog is now 1 1/2 years old. She paid $1500 for the puppy and this pat winter spent $3000. getting surgery on her rear legs for luxtating patellas. She also has a 2 year guarantee. for the heck of it though she has suspicions and her vet told her don't expect any $$ back from your breeder but inform her anyway..and tell her she should not repeat this breeding as this issue is genetic..She did notify the breeder....No responses. I can say from what I learned I willl be particular who I buy from, of course no guarantee is 100% and things can happen but if I am going to pay $$ I want the best chance oft having needless excessive bills.
 

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I thought I would hop on here to add to this thread even though it has been awhile since it was started but I wanted to add to it because I can speak from experience. I thought I would address some of the points brought up on this thread. I own a puppy from the Willow and Torch litter that was referenced and know that the pairing was a very specific pairing. She was not just putting two dogs that she owns together. She doesn't even own Torch the male. It was a stud that she specifically sought out. Torch does have a full and completely clear genetic panel from Paw Prints and I have seen the results. He has had his OFA hips and elbows x-rayed and a clear eye exam. He has been checked for luxating patellas and is good there too. He has a CHIP number and all the tests have been completed as stated. All of her females are health tested as well. She has not chosen to list everything on the website but is happy to share the results with any potential buyers.

She does not show her dogs in conformation but studies the breed standard and works very hard to better the breed with each litter. She studies each dog and looks at each fault and attribute and does her best to pick a pairing that will produce better puppies with each litter. Her dogs could do well in the show ring but she is breeding to have healthy very confident and loving family pets. She spends hours and hours with each litter working on early socialization and potty training. She is involved in trick dog training and obedience too.

She is aware that the official name of the dog does not start with AKC but as most people looking at her site are pet parents she did this to point out that they are registered with AKC. She has since changed that on her site.

As far as her Health Guarentee goes if you look around at most other breeder's health guarantees her's is pretty standard. She does not say that a state lab has to drop everything to do an autopsy just that one would need to be done. Again that is a very standard requirement for many breeder's health guarantees. This is to protect them in case the puppy buyer were to have hurt the puppy in some way and then turn around and blame them for a sick puppy.

My experience is that she is a great breeder to work with through the whole experience. She sends an update as soon as the puppies are born and then little notes, videos and pictures so that I got to watch the puppies grow and felt like I was a part of every step of the process. She does ENS in the early days and then follows Puppy Culture protocols.

She isn't a show breeder no but I would highly recommend her to anyone that is interested in getting a show quality family pet.
 
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