Poodle Forum banner

41 - 55 of 55 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,361 Posts
dogsavvy, you said "I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't done the right thing by my people".

If everyone in the world did this there would be world peace. Thank you, you have made me so grateful to know you, you have made not only my day, but my year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
255 Posts
Vita asked "If you don't mind sharing, what's the breed and name of the genetic disease they inherited since at least one showed signs of it as a puppy, and out of the litter, how many were genetically affected? Just curious since reading up on dog genetics is interesting to me."


Dobermans. Out of a litter of 9, all were affected to some degree but one. That one pup was seemingly totally unaffected by the problem. He was neutered so no issue with him reproducing & putting others at risk. A couple of the puppies had issues as puppies but over came those issues to live full lives, the rest were put down at the discretion of their owners & their vets. So we'll never know if they would have overcome the issue. One of the remaining three was put down due to cancer before age three but that pup had a lot of issues leading up to that.

kontiki,

I'm humbled at your words. It's my parents' & grandparents' fault. They raised me to do the right thing no matter how it looks, what's popular, or whatever. I've seen them live by it & so do I. I'm sad for the original poster for this situation because how different it could have been with a breeder who didn't HAVE to do the right thing but if he would have chosen to? It's maddening but the way the world turns these days. I'll stay an old relic.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,386 Posts
Dogsavvy, 8 of the 9 puppies, that's so horribly sad. I remember how excited I was when Bella was pregnant only for the first one to be born breach and DOA, followed by the second one coming hours later and also DOA.

There's nothing quite so thrilling as expecting everything to go right, then suddenly, horribly wrong. You were a perfect gentleman to your buyers thru it all, but I understand the sorrow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
I have two dogs from this breeder and, until this problem, I would have sworn he's a great breeder. I would still be saying that if a problem hadn't occurred. He was concerned initially, but as the facts were discovered he quickly dug in and declared he'd done nothing wrong and owed his buyers nothing.

He's correct that he didn't do anything wrong. There is no test for this condition and both the dam and sire had been bred to other dogs before with no problems. This was just an unlucky pairing of two carrier dogs. The sire is a Valentine dog; he'll never be bred again. His owner is devastated.

The technical name is "bilateral angular front limb deformity". It can be caused by damaged growth plates or rapid growth in large breed puppies. When it's seen in multiple pups in the same litter it's almost certainly genetic. This litter is being studied at the Purdue Canine Genetics Research Lab, so hopefully they'll find markers and develop a test.

In these puppies, the ulna stopped growing prematurely. The radius continued to grow and became bowed and twisted. Their front legs are shorter than they should be; the radius sticks out laterally at the elbows and medially at the wrists (see picture). Sometimes early surgical intervention can correct it, but it wasn't discovered soon enough in these puppies. All were left furry and fluffy, so it just couldn't be seen. It was noticed in one of the conformation pups when her front feet started angling outward. All were diagnosed around 9 months of age. They are now 15 months old. All were purchased as performance dogs; two for conformation. Mine was purchased primarily as an agility dog. That dream is now gone. My dog was evaluated by two orthopedic surgeons and a sport/rehab vet. For now surgery isn't recommended, but I'll have to watch her for pain and lameness her entire life, and surgery could be in her future. She had signs of arthritis at 11 months.

I'm not blaming my breeder for her bone deformity. He couldn't have prevented or predicted it. But, once it was discovered he failed miserably to do the right thing. When I asked for a refund he accused me of trying to destroy the pure bred dog breeding community, suggested I'd subject my puppy to unnecessary surgery, and denied he'd sold me a dog for agility. (If you check his website you'll see he says all his puppies can be expected to excel at all performance sports.) I haven't heard from him since.

I've attached a pretty cringe-worthy picture of what her legs look like, one of her x-rays, and another picture that shows how cute she is. Crooked legs or not, she's a lovely little dog and we will just have to find things other than agility to do together.
My heart goes out to you. I had a pup who was taken to the vet within an hour of being purchased. Vet stated she had serious concerns about the pup,s condition , describing him as undersized, underweight, not thriving and also suspected of having parasites. A serious worm infestation was later confirmed with stool tests. The breeder had assured me that the pup was registered for medical coverage and gave me the form with the number and the tag for his collar. After quite a few vet bills imagine my dismay when the invoices submitted were all rejected by the medical insurance company due to no policy paid for, and the breeder admitted she "was busy and forgot to send it in". Since the pup now had a record of issues, the insurance company refused future coverage! Because he then had a "record", we have never been able to insure him and all costs are paid by us. The breeder backpedalled at a tremendous rate, claimed I had somehow "damaged" the pup in the one hour he spent in a crate being transported directly to the vet office from her kennel. I got the support of my vet and with threats to go public with my story got 50 % of the first batch of vet bills refunded by the breeder, but am out hundreds of dollars since. We parted on very bad terms and I refuse to give her kennel any referrals.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,361 Posts
My heart goes out to you. I had a pup who was taken to the vet within an hour of being purchased. Vet stated she had serious concerns about the pup,s condition , describing him as undersized, underweight, not thriving and also suspected of having parasites. A serious worm infestation was later confirmed with stool tests. The breeder had assured me that the pup was registered for medical coverage and gave me the form with the number and the tag for his collar. After quite a few vet bills imagine my dismay when the invoices submitted were all rejected by the medical insurance company due to no policy paid for, and the breeder admitted she "was busy and forgot to send it in". Since the pup now had a record of issues, the insurance company refused future coverage! Because he then had a "record", we have never been able to insure him and all costs are paid by us. The breeder backpedalled at a tremendous rate, claimed I had somehow "damaged" the pup in the one hour he spent in a crate being transported directly to the vet office from her kennel. I got the support of my vet and with threats to go public with my story got 50 % of the first batch of vet bills refunded by the breeder, but am out hundreds of dollars since. We parted on very bad terms and I refuse to give her kennel any referrals.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
Please warn us who this is. My heart goes out to you, and to your pup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
Please warn us who this is. My heart goes out to you, and to your pup.
The pup did turn into a sweet natured dog, he does, however, have serious food and environmental allergies. Since we could not get insurance coverage for him, all of the associated costs for this have also been straight out of pocket for us.
The kennel was "Isle of Poodles" , London, Ontario Canada

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
It is so important that we let each other know so that we can be knowledgeable in choosing our healthiest pup! Thank you.
And blessings for loving and caring for your dog in spite of the problems...
He also had high pressure buildup in one eye. A vigilant vet caught and treated it, seems ok now. Would have been nice to have insurance for that one! But we adore our Charlie boy, he can spend every day with us because we are retired and much of our day is spent entertaining the Poodle

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
Charlie’s Person, I’m so sorry you & your pup are going through this! It really is a life altering situation! Charlie is lucky to be loved by you.

My pup, Phoenix, had a few days of limping a couple weeks ago, but it resolved on its own and she’s fine now. But, it reminded me that I will always be on-watch for symptoms that could indicate a progression of her condition and possibly the need for surgical correction, which carries its own consequences.

I’ve tried to be very careful and truthful in what I post about her breeder. I am not indiscriminately bashing him or his dogs. In his last email he threatened to sue me for defamation. I’m not worried about that since I’ve only shared the truth and, last time I checked, I’m allowed to formulate an opinion based on those facts. I think his threat indicates more about his character and should serve as a further caution to those who might consider buying a puppy from him. No breeder can prevent every unfortunate outcome and no contract can cover every issue. The true measure of character is how you choose to behave when a contract isn’t dictating your actions. This breeder has chosen to turn his back on 3 puppies and their buyers, keeping our total of $7500 in his pocket, while berating me for my “moralistic emails”. I think that speaks for itself. In my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
959 Posts
I am sorry this happened to you Deb and Charlie's Person. People who find good breeders and end up with healthy puppies/dogs truly are fortunately.

One way a person can protect themselves against legal action would be to name the breeder's region and provide the specifics as to what happened, but leave out the exact location and breeder's name. In the past, a member asked people on the board to PM her if they wanted to know the name of the bad breeder. This might be something to consider if a breeder is threatening legal action. But I agree that people have a right to know which breeders are abandoning their puppies with ill health (when it is the breeder's fault) and not supporting their customers.

Thank you for continuing to care for these precious pups.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
94 Posts
Charlie’s Person, I’m so sorry you & your pup are going through this! It really is a life altering situation! Charlie is lucky to be loved by you.

My pup, Phoenix, had a few days of limping a couple weeks ago, but it resolved on its own and she’s fine now. But, it reminded me that I will always be on-watch for symptoms that could indicate a progression of her condition and possibly the need for surgical correction, which carries its own consequences.

I’ve tried to be very careful and truthful in what I post about her breeder. I am not indiscriminately bashing him or his dogs. In his last email he threatened to sue me for defamation. I’m not worried about that since I’ve only shared the truth and, last time I checked, I’m allowed to formulate an opinion based on those facts. I think his threat indicates more about his character and should serve as a further caution to those who might consider buying a puppy from him. No breeder can prevent every unfortunate outcome and no contract can cover every issue. The true measure of character is how you choose to behave when a contract isn’t dictating your actions. This breeder has chosen to turn his back on 3 puppies and their buyers, keeping our total of $7500 in his pocket, while berating me for my “moralistic emails”. I think that speaks for itself. In my opinion.
Good for you Deb. One way or another - i.e., Google, the BBB, yelp, etc., - get your breeder's name out there, as I have done with the neurosurgeon who killed Ricky and charged me $18K anyway. Report him to the AKC and your state's attorney general. Apparently dealing in live animals that the buyer gets bonded to almost immediately is just a business to these people, and not giving a refund or appropriate remuneration for a bad 'product' is within the rights of these unethical people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,278 Posts
Sorry to disagree...

Deb -- I appreciate the way you have tried to represent the facts accurately. But I just don't think that the facts justify your accusations. I think you are treating this breeder unfairly.

You said: "The contract has a genetic disease clause for a couple specific conditions. This condition wasn't named, probably because it was a completely unexpected problem." I don't think that any puppy buyer has a right to assume that a puppy will be free of serious illnesses. That's a risk that you take when you buy a dog. This is especially true in this case where your contract had a genetic disease clause that covered specific diseases -- and not this one. The idea that you would have a right to unilaterally expand the health guarantee, when the terms of the health guarantee were specifically defined in your contract just does not seem fair to me.

You said: "I'm not blaming my breeder for her bone deformity. He couldn't have prevented or predicted it." The breeder's web site says that all breeding dogs have health testing including, DNA testing, a CHIC number and pedigree research. That's certainly a sign of a good breeder. You also say: "He has very nice dogs and has a nice puppy rearing protocol." Another sign of a good breeder. Based on what you have said, I would be very interested in purchasing a puppy from this breeder. Yet you are trying to harm their reputation. That just does not seem right.

My advice to any puppy buyer is this: When you buy a dog, it becomes yours and you are responsible for medical or other issues that you may encounter. You can significantly reduce the likelihood of having health issues by getting a puppy from a reputable breeder who does health testing, DNA testing and careful pedigree research. But you cannot eliminate all risks. Personally, I think that health testing, DNA testing, and pedigree research are more important than health guarantees. If you want a guarantee, talk to your breeder about what is covered and what is not covered, and read the contract. Most of the health guarantees that I have seen do not cover very much. In my opinion, it is unfair to the breeder to expect that they will do more for you than what is specified in the contract.

Based on what has been said here, and a quick review of the web site, I think Gladystar looks like a very good breeder. I have no personal knowledge of them, but I would definitely consider them if I was looking for a puppy in their area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
305 Posts
Deb -- I appreciate the way you have tried to represent the facts accurately. But I just don't think that the facts justify your accusations. I think you are treating this breeder unfairly.

You said: "The contract has a genetic disease clause for a couple specific conditions. This condition wasn't named, probably because it was a completely unexpected problem." I don't think that any puppy buyer has a right to assume that a puppy will be free of serious illnesses. That's a risk that you take when you buy a dog. This is especially true in this case where your contract had a genetic disease clause that covered specific diseases -- and not this one. The idea that you would have a right to unilaterally expand the health guarantee, when the terms of the health guarantee were specifically defined in your contract just does not seem fair to me.

You said: "I'm not blaming my breeder for her bone deformity. He couldn't have prevented or predicted it." The breeder's web site says that all breeding dogs have health testing including, DNA testing, a CHIC number and pedigree research. That's certainly a sign of a good breeder. You also say: "He has very nice dogs and has a nice puppy rearing protocol." Another sign of a good breeder. Based on what you have said, I would be very interested in purchasing a puppy from this breeder. Yet you are trying to harm their reputation. That just does not seem right.

My advice to any puppy buyer is this: When you buy a dog, it becomes yours and you are responsible for medical or other issues that you may encounter. You can significantly reduce the likelihood of having health issues by getting a puppy from a reputable breeder who does health testing, DNA testing and careful pedigree research. But you cannot eliminate all risks. Personally, I think that health testing, DNA testing, and pedigree research are more important than health guarantees. If you want a guarantee, talk to your breeder about what is covered and what is not covered, and read the contract. Most of the health guarantees that I have seen do not cover very much. In my opinion, it is unfair to the breeder to expect that they will do more for you than what is specified in the contract.

Based on what has been said here, and a quick review of the web site, I think Gladystar looks like a very good breeder. I have no personal knowledge of them, but I would definitely consider them if I was looking for a puppy in their area.
I absolutely agree a breeder can't guarantee against every genetic defect that could crop up in a dog. But the way in which a breeder responds to an issue that crops up is also telling. I totally don't agree with the response of the breeder in question here and based on that, will put them on my list of breeders I would tell people to "steer clear" of as well. I show very frequently and am constantly around people who get their dogs of all breeds from high-level breeders. I have told this story to a number of people (without mentioning the name of the breeder) and without exception, did not find 1 person who agreed with the response of this breeder or would recommend them to anyone. 3 pups in the litter were affected, which I believe was the majority of the litter. In my opinion, he should have at least refunded the full purchase price of the affected pups without making it a condition that the pup was returned.

Yes, when you buy a dog you assume all costs for raising it, which of course includes vet care. But if you are going to have unexpected and expensive costs due to a genetic defect right from the beginning of the dog's life, whether guaranteed in the contract or not, the very least the breeder can do is refund the purchase price. This breeder seems more worried about the issue getting out than about the issue his bitch has produced and the future quality of life of these puppies he has bred. I believe he was even planning to breed her again - I stand corrected if he is not. The plain fact is his bitch (and the stud) have produced pups with this severe genetic issue - it's not minor, the future health and comfort of the dogs for their entire lives is questionable, even with surgery. So he can threaten legal action for the OP talking about it, but he has no standing to sue based on her just stating the facts of the matter. It's not like she made up the diagnosis, said he didn't refund the purchase price of the puppy when he did, etc.

I also think the issue should be reported on the poodle health database as well and I hope the OP does so. This way someone else doing research on breeders in future will have valuable information to base their choices on. Just like I might choose to avoid a certain breeder if multiple cases of bloat or dogs with HD, or other genetic issues cropped up repeatedly in their line. FYI, It also seems to me, from what the OP posted, that the stud owner seemed much more responsible and concerned about what her dog had produced.
 
41 - 55 of 55 Posts
Top