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i just read up on a little history of the breed, yet the book didn't clearly say which size originated first. It kinda suggested both appear roughly the same time, anyone knows the answer? I would love to hear your input
 

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From the old pictures I have seen, I would say they were a standard. 50 to 60 pounds, possibly lighter. They look bulkier than today's poodle.
 

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They are not and never have been separate breeds. They are varieties of a breed. I don't think there is a "chicken or the egg" here, they just at some part became separated into varieties, probably when they started being shown.
 

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The lagotto romagnolo is the original ancestor of the curly-coated water dogs and is/was 25-35 lbs. I think there has always been a spectrum of size in poodles and they were only separated in recent times.
 

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Mia, Christmas in June 2010
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The lagotto romagnolo is the original ancestor of the curly-coated water dogs and is/was 25-35 lbs.
Do we know this for fact? I've heard several breeds claim to the originator, and yet genetically, some of these breeds appear to be rather distinct. There was a phylogeny published around 2015 that was rather surprising in this regard.

ETA: This tree.
 

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The lagotto romagnolo is the original ancestor of the curly-coated water dogs and is/was 25-35 lbs. I think there has always been a spectrum of size in poodles and they were only separated in recent times.
I remember the Portuguese Water Dog was once heralded as the ancestor of the poodle as was the Barbet. I wonder if dna tests have shown any of this to be definitively true or false
 

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Speaking of DNA BetterBred or UC Davis has a comparison graph showing the genetic commonalities of minis and standards, it is interesting to study
 

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i just read up on a little history of the breed, yet the book didn't clearly say which size originated first. It kinda suggested both appear roughly the same time, anyone knows the answer? I would love to hear your input
Unfortunately, there isn't a clear answer, at least not yet. No one was keeping records of dogs at this level, probably until the Victorian Era, which is generally considered the birth of modern dog breeding.


Updated study 2017
Genomic Analyses Reveal the Influence of Geographic Origin, Migration, and Hybridization on Modern Dog Breed Development: Cell Reports


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From VGL UCDavis Miniature Poodle Genetic Diversity
MiniaturePoodle20191009.pdf (ucdavis.edu)

"I. Introduction A. Breed History The history of the Miniature Poodle is intimately tied up with the history of the Standard Poodle, which goes back six centuries or more. Although is might be presumed that the Standard Poodle came first, miniaturization of dogs has gone on for thousands of years and it is just as likely that various sizes of Poodles evolved during the same time according to human needs. Standard Poodles would be used as hunting and working dogs, while miniature and toy varieties were used primarily for companionship. The Standard Poodle breed probably originated as a water fowl retriever in Germany rather than France. The name “Poodle” is the same as the German “pudel”, which means refers to splashing in water (i.e., water retrieving). Others believe that the Poodle is a descendent of the French Barbet and has been proclaimed the national dog of France. Regardless of its origin, the Poodle rapidly became one of the most popular dogs in Continental Europe with paintings of dogs identical to Poodles originating in Germany as early as the 15th to 16th century. The Standard Poodle was the principal pet dog in Spain in the 18th century and Toy Poodles were found in many royal households in France during the same period. The poodle has been bred in several sizes. Standard, Miniature, and Toy Poodles are recognized by the American Kennel Club. The British Kennel Club also recognizes three sizes, with the miniature and toy being merely smaller versions of the standard. The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) recognizes the three sizes but adds in the medium Poodle. The fact that the various sizes of Poodles are viewed as varieties and not breeds, crosses between the various sizes is allowed. However, genetic testing of Miniature Poodles from North America showed them to be a distinct breed compared to Standard Poodles." **

** This is why using Miniatures as a control to help clear Standards of autoimmune diseases.


Miniature_Poodle_genetic_comparison_May-23-2012.pdf (ucdavis.edu)
"Miniature and Standard Poodles are much more genetically different than has been commonly assumed and are in fact distinct breeds that are as distant from each other as many other random breed pairings. These findings have both positive and negative meanings. Miniature Poodles are genetically distinct from Standard Poodles and their use as controls for SA affected Standard Poodles in genome wide association studies (GWAS) is not possible, or at the least must be done with great caution."

VGL Toy Poodle Genetic Diversity
ToyPoodle20191010.pdf (ucdavis.edu)

"I. Introduction A. Breed history The history of the Toy Poodle is intimately tied up with that of the Standard Poodles. Although it is logical to assume that Standard Poodles came first, miniaturization of dogs has gone on for thousands of years and it is just as likely that various sizes of Poodles evolved in the same time according to different human needs. Standard Poodles would be used as hunting and working dogs, while Miniature and Toy varieties were used primarily for companionship. The Standard Poodle is thought to have originated as a water fowl retriever in Germany rather than France where it is proclaimed the national dog. The name “Poodle” is the same as the German “pudel”, which refers to splashing in water (e.g., water retrieving). Others believe that the Poodle is a descendent of the French Barbet. Regardless of its origin, the Poodle rapidly became one of the most popular dogs in Continental Europe with paintings of dogs identical to Poodles originating in Germany as early as the 15th to 16th century. Small dogs that look like Toy Poodles have been depicted in art going back to the first century.1 The Standard Poodle was the principal pet dog in Spain in the 18th century and small Poodles were found in many royal households in France during this time. The Poodle has been bred in several sizes and Standard, Miniature, and Toy Poodles are recognized by the American Kennel Club. The British Kennel Club also recognizes three sizes. The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) recognizes the three sizes variants but adds in the medium Poodle. The different sizes are not considered breeds, but rather varieties with the miniature and toy being merely smaller versions of the standard. Crosses between various sizes are allowed and offspring registered based on height at the withers. However, the trend is to select parents within the same size range more like breeds. The Standard Poodle sets the size for the three (or four) different varieties of Poodles.

Poodle History Project (Internet Archive)
Poodle History Project (archive.org)

Poodle History Project
The goal of this project is to illuminate the tasks which the Poodle (and his cousins) were "bred to do". Any breed's job description defines good temperament, which is always breed-specific. Since form follows function, good breed-specific conformation makes the designated tasks easier to perform. For a development of this thesis, see: Dorothy Macdonald, Poodles: past, present & future, Poodle Club of America Foundation Seminar, 1997, videotape available for purchase from PCA.
A comprehensive history of the Poodle does not exist. Neither does this exist for the several other varieties of European water spaniel, although evidence in art history indicates that these were a familiar sight as early as the High Middle Ages. Prior to ca 1870 our knowledge is sketchy, excepting certain brilliant examples. Meanwhile, we make do with a series of fascinating sources, which are presented here as an annotated bibliography in quasi-essay format, organized by function. We welcome receipt of additional sources.
 
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