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Killa and Tekno
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Kind of like a bilingual child when they start to split their two languages, Tekno is showing me that he thinks/knows stack and stand are different. When I use the stack cue with my hands in a “Ive got a treat” position, he steps forward, pushes a leg back, and raises his tail proudly. I wish I could take credit for this but I think it’s mostly genetic. I did not purposely shape such a beautiful free stack, it just clicked for stillness and this just kind of happened lol.

So, with “stand” we usually do that coming from another position like sit or down, and there is no continuous cue with my hands. Sometimes he stacks during a stand but most of the time it’s a more “ready for action” stand and he awaits being released to do something. I’ve been calling both these things “stand” up to this point though, which brings me to the questions:

What do you all call your stack vs stand? What are your cues? Do you even give a vocal cue to stack or let that be a hand signal only?
 
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Babykins is a failed conformation dog, she stacks all the time. I compete in several dog sports and see many people who compete in conformation. I’m often asked if my dog does conformation and people point out how nice she stacks. It’s not a problem in Rally or Competition Obedience.

Some dogs naturally stack when they stand. If you do AKC Obedience, there’s a Stand for Exam in Novice. You cue your dog to stand, then touch to help your dog into a proper stack position (if you want). The scoring starts after you give the stay command and leave your dog.

From AKC rule book “On the judge’s order, the handler will stand/pose the dog by the method of the handler’s choice, taking any reasonable time if they choose to pose the dog as in the show ring. The handler will then stand with the dog in the heel position, and may give the command and/or signal to stay, walk straight forward about 6 feet, and then turn and face the dog.”
 
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Killa and Tekno
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Babykins is a failed conformation dog, she stacks all the time. I compete in several dog sports and see many people who compete in conformation. I’m often asked if my dog does conformation and people point out how nice she stacks. It’s not a problem in Rally or Competition Obedience.

Some dogs naturally stack when they stand. If you do AKC Obedience, there’s a Stand for Exam in Novice. You cue your dog to stand, then touch to help your dog into a proper stack position (if you want). The scoring starts after you give the stay command and leave your dog.

From AKC rule book “On the judge’s order, the handler will stand/pose the dog by the method of the handler’s choice, taking any reasonable time if they choose to pose the dog as in the show ring. The handler will then stand with the dog in the heel position, and may give the command and/or signal to stay, walk straight forward about 6 feet, and then turn and face the dog.”
Oh Im not having a problem. Im not worried about him stacking in the rally or obedience ring. I will be doing conformation and obedience/rally at the same time though and wonder the best way to handle both cue wise. Im wondering specifically if people that do both have separate cues for stand and stacking and what they do to cue the dog. Looking for ideas on how to clearly ask him for the stand vs stack and wondering if people give them different names. I think I will need to keep encouraging separate behaviors because stand is more like freeze and don’t move but in stack he moves himself into position and follows my moving hand + leash movement.
 

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Killa and Tekno
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Babykins is a failed conformation dog, she stacks all the time. I compete in several dog sports and see many people who compete in conformation. I’m often asked if my dog does conformation and people point out how nice she stacks. It’s not a problem in Rally or Competition Obedience.

Some dogs naturally stack when they stand. If you do AKC Obedience, there’s a Stand for Exam in Novice. You cue your dog to stand, then touch to help your dog into a proper stack position (if you want). The scoring starts after you give the stay command and leave your dog.

From AKC rule book “On the judge’s order, the handler will stand/pose the dog by the method of the handler’s choice, taking any reasonable time if they choose to pose the dog as in the show ring. The handler will then stand with the dog in the heel position, and may give the command and/or signal to stay, walk straight forward about 6 feet, and then turn and face the dog.”
Quick question though, do you say “stay” after you cue something or does your dog remain doing the thing until released? If so, when is Stay used?

So far Ive resisted teaching Tekno “Stay” so that he doesn’t think he can do whatever he wants if I don’t say stay. Now that he understands better to stay put without the word “stay” Im thinking of sparingly introducing it (like if we’re walking and I want him to freeze while I keep walking) but Im not sure when I would use it in obedience yet. We’re not in competition level classes yet, he needs one more group class before we can start them but Im still trying to teach him all I can to prepare him.
 

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Stay is one of those cues some handlers like and some handlers don't use. In rally, having a stay cue is helpful. You do a whole lot of moving in rally. On Sign #3 you stop, the dog sits, and then you just heel forward. On Sign #30, you stop, the dog sits, and you walk around them anti-clockwise.

From the dog's perspective, these are the same cues. Both times, you stopped and the dog sat. Both times you take a step forward. Last time the dog joined you in heel position and that was correct. The second time the dog anticipates walking with you and gets up. Now you just lost 10 points.

How is your dog supposed to know to remain in place when 20 seconds ago you did the exact opposite and moved together from a sit? Well, I didn't say heel. My dog should just know to stay until I say heel. Here's the thing, your dog does not know how to play Simon Says. Your dog know show to follow cues.

So, let's try Sign #30 again. You stop, the dog sits. You say, "Stay!" You walk around your dog. And pause, then heel to the next sign. You didn't lose 10 points! Whoo hoo!
 

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Quick question though, do you say “stay” after you cue something or does your dog remain doing the thing until released? If so, when is Stay used?

So far Ive resisted teaching Tekno “Stay” so that he doesn’t think he can do whatever he wants if I don’t say stay. Now that he understands better to stay put without the word “stay” Im thinking of sparingly introducing it (like if we’re walking and I want him to freeze while I keep walking) but Im not sure when I would use it in obedience yet. We’re not in competition level classes yet, he needs one more group class before we can start them but Im still trying to teach him all I can to prepare him.
I taught three cues, “stay” a hand signal and a foot signal You will need a stay in Agility, Rally and Competition Obedience and probably other dog sports.

Dogs need to stay from a stand, sit and down position. I know that many people train their dog that when they say “sit” the dog stays in a sit until released, same with down and stand. But I find there’s so many variations that it’s good to have a stay command. Stay is telling my dog that I’m moving away. My dog keeps whatever position they were in before ”stay” until I give them another command. In signal exercises I may sit my dog, tell them stay while I walk 15’ away, turn and use a hand signal to down, then turn and walk away farther and use a hand signal to call into front. I also use walking away with my right foot, I always start heel on my left foot since the dog follows the left foot

In Agility the stay is basic. Dog has to keep behind the start line while you go out into position and you give the command to start. In AKC there’s a pause table where the dog must stay on the table for a count of 5 before going back to running to the next obstacle. You may not need a Stay command here, but it helps in training.

In Rally and Obedience as Click mentioned there’s all kinds of stays. Even in the AKC CGC there is a stay where you sit or down your dog while you walk away to pick something up. I have all levels of titles in WCRL rally, and I had just started AKC before shutdown, they are a little different. There is stay in a sit, down or stand while I walk or run away, or I circle the dog, or my dog is at a distance (signal exercis in WCRL). Utiliy level obedience has a Moving Stand and Examination. No voice command only hand signal and off leash. Judge asks you and your dog to heel , you heel about 10’ the. Judge says “stand your dog”. Your dog is obviously standing because it’s walking..... you have to signal your dog to immediately stop moving and stand in place while you walk 10-12’ and stand. The judge walks over to your dog and runs their hands over from neck to back. The judge will step away and ask you to call your dog to heel. Dog stays standing in one place, not moving paws forward from the time you walk away until you have them come into heel position. When you walk in a heel and the judge says ”stand your dog” you must continue to walk exactly at the same speed and steps as you were while heeling, no stop or slowing down...you are cuing your dog to stay, so quickly and smoothly that you need a hand signal.

I also find “stay” a practical command. I dropped a glass which broke in a million pieces right as my dog was coming into the kitchen. I told her “stay” and she held her position while I cleaned up all the glass and vacuumed I released her when it was safe. I’m thankful I had that command. I wasn’t wearing shoes so it would have be dangerous for me to run and get to her to safety if she didn’t have a stay.

To add confusion, I also have a wait command.... wait in the car until I release you. I don’t use wait in rally or obedience. I know some people who use both wait and stay for different purposes in rally and obedience.

Don’t worry about teaching everything to Techno, there’s plenty of time. What’s critical is you are consistent and you have done a great job of make it fun for him.

Babykins is the first dog I trained, never knew this existed til I got her. I was frustrated sometimes because I didn’t have the whole picture. There were some hand signals I had to change as I better understood what I needed. It wasn’t a problem changing them. You won’t have trouble either if that happens. Also there’s more than one way to do things so what works for you may not work for someone else. I have now trained Babykins for open and utility so I have the full picture finally and I can use that for training my new puppy.
 

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If you are interested in competition obedience, which you should be given how great you train Techno, I suggest you get started in that first and then circle back and do rally. Why? I you watch a rally competition you can tell who is serious about obedience and who only does rally.

People who do obedience know that when you call your dog front you stand like a statue. People who do rally don’t, you see them swinging their arms and cuing their dog with their hands into front coming to point at their privates. obedience people joke it’s like they are signal an airplane into a runway. If you train all that movement for rally you have to untrain it for obedience.
 

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Killa and Tekno
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Stay is one of those cues some handlers like and some handlers don't use. In rally, having a stay cue is helpful. You do a whole lot of moving in rally. On Sign #3 you stop, the dog sits, and then you just heel forward. On Sign #30, you stop, the dog sits, and you walk around them anti-clockwise.

From the dog's perspective, these are the same cues. Both times, you stopped and the dog sat. Both times you take a step forward. Last time the dog joined you in heel position and that was correct. The second time the dog anticipates walking with you and gets up. Now you just lost 10 points.

How is your dog supposed to know to remain in place when 20 seconds ago you did the exact opposite and moved together from a sit? Well, I didn't say heel. My dog should just know to stay until I say heel. Here's the thing, your dog does not know how to play Simon Says. Your dog know show to follow cues.

So, let's try Sign #30 again. You stop, the dog sits. You say, "Stay!" You walk around your dog. And pause, then heel to the next sign. You didn't lose 10 points! Whoo hoo!
In this example, before I walked around the dog I would say “sit” even if he was sitting already and then walk around. I would also leave with my right foot. If I wanted the dog to continue following I wouldn’t say anything and would leave with my left foot. Tekno does this with high accuracy right now but I will teach him the stay command just to have it in my back pocket.
 

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I use both "wait" and "stay". Wait means "don't leave that place, but you can sit, stand, or lie down". "Stay" means "stay in that place and in that position". I use "wait" to keep Zoe from dashing out the door or through the gate.
 

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Killa and Tekno
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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
If you are interested in competition obedience, which you should be given how great you train Techno, I suggest you get started in that first and then circle back and do rally. Why? I you watch a rally competition you can tell who is serious about obedience and who only does rally.

People who do obedience know that when you call your dog front you stand like a statue. People who do rally don’t, you see them swinging their arms and cuing their dog with their hands into front coming to point at their privates. obedience people joke it’s like they are signal an airplane into a runway. If you train all that movement for rally you have to untrain it for obedience.
Thank you for all that info. I will began teaching him “stay” in the context of freezing in place. I think that’s the most useful one for us.


And yes, right now we’re on track to do Obedience for his first 2 years and then introduce Rally and Agility. I like the foundation work done in obedience and how it expands to all the other things we want to do like therapy work, CGCA, Urban Dog etc. We’re going to start Nosework this month too :)

Here’s a vid of Tek practicing Fronts with me. My arms are at my sides and Im looking down .

 
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