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Discussion Starter #1
Ok Here is Enzo before



Here he is now ( not finish he does not hold still)



I think my sister kind of messed up the croup area she cut to much off IMO. Again we never had a show dog and my sister never groomed a show dog.
Here the other dilemma Eno lost hair from advantage and you can tell its short on the right side of his neck

here are pictures





What could she do to make it look better ir should we just leave it ? I know if the judge sees that he will not place . I am not expecting Enzo to even win but if a miracle happens and he did place lol His first show is for practice anyways. I will make sure to take lots of pictures.
 

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I think some of your neck hair problem is the collar. I had the same problem with Guenna. It was like all of a sudden she had this really short area around her neck. I got a silk collar and that helped greatly. Also, are you wrapping his hair? My breeder told me that Guenna needed at least 12" of hair on top of her head to really do anything. The Color Coordinated Canine has a great selection of bands & wraps geared toward poodles. Also, when you walk him... If anybody asks "can I pet your puppy" let them. The more strange people touch him the more he will become desensitized to being handled and he will stand still better when the judge approaches.

I've learned so much raising Guenna. The first time she walked into the ring at 10mo & the judge examined her she didn't move a paw or flinch a muscle. I was really really proud of her. She acted like this was normal, every day life and people were always giving her attention.

Enzo is a really beautiful red. I wish you lots of luck with him.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I think some of your neck hair problem is the collar. I had the same problem with Guenna. It was like all of a sudden she had this really short area around her neck. I got a silk collar and that helped greatly. Also, are you wrapping his hair?
Enzo does not wear a collar so I know it was from the advantage. He only wears collars when we walk him. As for wrapping ? please explain that.

We try asking people on other forms for grooming help but no luck from the breeders. I went on a grooming forum and waiting for a few people to reply and help us out.

Yes we let people Pet Enzo all the time we have been stepping our game up and have been training him with a clipper. He is getting so good at standing still we took him to the dog park and made him stack and he did not move at all.
 

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The wrapping is so far what has kept me from wanting to maintain a show coat.

There was a bit of hope for me though at the last show I was at a handler I see all the time was showing adog in a shorter trim, with a scissored topknot. I was fascinated of course and talked to her about it.
 

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If you don't have it get the Shirlee Kalstone Poodle book, it is great, has heaps of info on keeping a show coat including wrapping, banding, washing routines etc ... and how to clip the puppy, continental and english saddle for show.

I am no expert but from what I have read I think you could take some more off his chest and from the top of his rear legs. Most photos I have seen of a puppy clip they are quite angular, you are aiming to make the pup look square and the extra on both ends makes him look longer than he really is. Others would know more about the US show scene and what wins over there but I have put a link below to T's sister here in Oz who is doing very well.

http://www.blue-standardpoodles.com/comfort.htm

As you can see she has very definate shape to the clip, she is only 9 months old so still being shown in puppy clip. I think she looks awesome.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If you don't have it get the Shirlee Kalstone Poodle book, it is great, has heaps of info on keeping a show coat including wrapping, banding, washing routines etc ... and how to clip the puppy, continental and english saddle for show.

I am no expert but from what I have read I think you could take some more off his chest and from the top of his rear legs. Most photos I have seen of a puppy clip they are quite angular, you are aiming to make the pup look square and the extra on both ends makes him look longer than he really is. Others would know more about the US show scene and what wins over there but I have put a link below to T's sister here in Oz who is doing very well.

http://www.blue-standardpoodles.com/comfort.htm

As you can see she has very definate shape to the clip, she is only 9 months old so still being shown in puppy clip. I think she looks awesome.

Yeah She is not finished with Enzo , in the USA we don't like our puppies like that pup in the link.

I think I will buy a grooming DVD later for show clips. I seen the book you mentioned and i been planning to buy that also.
 

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While I'm far from an expert, I have been studying and learning show grooming.
I would recommend that you and your sister, or whoever is grooming, take some time to look at winning photos of standard puppies to study the desired look.
From your photo, I would recommend more shaping above the feet, especially in front. I was told not to touch the hind legs, as you really want that hair to grow full.
Also, you want to create a sort of right angle on the hip. Hard to explain but if you research some show pics you will see what I'm talking about. I see the shape of the body as sort of a bullhorn with a flat tip, if that makes any sense. Remember you are trying to create a square overall. Show grooming is a science, and it will most certainly make the difference. Are you planning on showing UKC or AKC or another organization? That will make a big difference as well. Best of luck!!!
 

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Yeah She is not finished with Enzo , in the USA we don't like our puppies like that pup in the link.

I think I will buy a grooming DVD later for show clips. I seen the book you mentioned and i been planning to buy that also.
That pup in the link is absolutely gorgeous...love that clip.
What is it that makes the puppy undesirable in the USA?
 

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That isn't the right shape for USA, mostly there seems to be a lot more off of the hind end and thee shouldn't be a "wasitline" in front of the ribcage. I think that is what Roxy was seeing, it's what I see anyway. I don't see poodle puppies groomed like there here in the states at shows.

I do like that clip though, very pretty. Maybe I try that for Jazz.... ?? She is already pretty close to that anyway with the body shape, and has a crest.. She needs ears and more hair on the topline... Something to think about.. Better, maybe I'll put Saleen in that trim. DANG!! Wish I hadn't just done a lamb on her!

Hey Roxy... check out petedge, I noticed reccently that they started carring a DVD series and one of them is show grooming for the poodle. Not cheap, but hey it's not everyday info either I suppose. I can't think if the name of the groomer who is doing them off the top of my head. I think it also goes over wrapping and such. I was going to buy it because I had Jazz in an english saddle and wanted to refine it and make it look better.. no need now lol
 

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Roxy25...did your sister buy Enzo intending to show him?
Did the breeder feel,that he is a show potential?
If not bought with showing in mind,have you guys had Enzo evaluated by someone to see if he is a show potential?
I don't know much about showing at all,but am just curious about the whole thing...what they look for in a puppy etc....besides the obvious...correct position of the tail,tight feet and all that.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
While I'm far from an expert, I have been studying and learning show grooming.
I would recommend that you and your sister, or whoever is grooming, take some time to look at winning photos of standard puppies to study the desired look.
From your photo, I would recommend more shaping above the feet, especially in front. I was told not to touch the hind legs, as you really want that hair to grow full.
Also, you want to create a sort of right angle on the hip. Hard to explain but if you research some show pics you will see what I'm talking about. I see the shape of the body as sort of a bullhorn with a flat tip, if that makes any sense. Remember you are trying to create a square overall. Show grooming is a science, and it will most certainly make the difference. Are you planning on showing UKC or AKC or another organization? That will make a big difference as well. Best of luck!!!
Yes we have been looking at all kinds of pictures , I just wanted advice on his neck area.

My sister is no where near finished as stated in first post this is why his front is still fuzzy and not even. I am glad you said the hind legs should not be cut because I was arguing with my sister about that. I told her she messed up on his back end , but she said it was fine. I told her she cut too much hair off.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
That isn't the right shape for USA, mostly there seems to be a lot more off of the hind end and thee shouldn't be a "wasitline" in front of the ribcage. I think that is what Roxy was seeing, it's what I see anyway. I don't see poodle puppies groomed like there here in the states at shows.

I do like that clip though, very pretty. Maybe I try that for Jazz.... ?? She is already pretty close to that anyway with the body shape, and has a crest.. She needs ears and more hair on the topline... Something to think about.. Better, maybe I'll put Saleen in that trim. DANG!! Wish I hadn't just done a lamb on her!

Hey Roxy... check out petedge, I noticed reccently that they started carring a DVD series and one of them is show grooming for the poodle. Not cheap, but hey it's not everyday info either I suppose. I can't think if the name of the groomer who is doing them off the top of my head. I think it also goes over wrapping and such. I was going to buy it because I had Jazz in an english saddle and wanted to refine it and make it look better.. no need now lol
Thanks for explaining the Euro / Aussie puppy clips lol

I will check out the video , the videos I found where these

http://poodlegroomingvideo.com/
and this one


http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/430144/catid/198/vname/Poodle_Grooming_Groomerworks_DVD_with_Christina_Pawlosky

and this one

http://www.groomersmall.com/images/Poodle-DVD-Info.jpg

I am not sure which to get because they are all expensive lol
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Roxy25...did your sister buy Enzo intending to show him?
Did the breeder feel,that he is a show potential?
If not bought with showing in mind,have you guys had Enzo evaluated by someone to see if he is a show potential?
I don't know much about showing at all,but am just curious about the whole thing...what they look for in a puppy etc....besides the obvious...correct position of the tail,tight feet and all that.
My sister bought him to show, but the breeder is not a show person. We have not had anyone look at him because there is really no body local. I had Two breeders see pictures of him and video both did not say he was a waste to show. My sister even told one that if he does not look good we will replace him. I already know he won't win in AKC because he is red so we will be doing both AKC and UKC.

Here is a link Blue fox posted if you want to see the standard in video form
http://www.dog.com/dog-breeds/poodle/
 

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Hey guys! I bought a new phone right before my son getting ill so here I am.
I think you should show enzo even if his hair on his neck isn't perfect. He's a puppy growing coat so he will not be penalized like they would if he was a adult dog. Also you need to get him out rather then wait even if you have concerns about his conformation or what ever. He doesn't need to be evaluated before he goes out. Every dog has something that's not perfect or could be better. He is a growing puppy ans they go through puppy stages etc during this time.what he will eventually turn out to will be seen later. You for sure don't have a pile so let him get the experience just as you guys will and have a good time. I still say start ukc and when his coat grows in more and the clip is perfected then go akc. Its all about showing enzo that this is fun and learning for us newbies.

Sure you can have him evaluated but everyone has a different oponion. You know what the standard is and you know how your dog looks like. I think having dogs evaluated can often be a waste of time personally. See what the judges think and what your competition looks like. You"ll learn a lot just doing that.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
OMG thank you newpoodlemum !

That looks way better on Enzo , I showed my sister and she will fix his back end to look like that and his under belly. I will post the final results.

Thanks Jenn we wont mess with his neck either.

also thank you katsdogworld for chatting with me about coat care , I will be messaging you here an there :D
 
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