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Rose, you've been rocking this thread!

Just starting to look into the proof if any that genetic testing is helping breeds become healthier... More complete but same article on the aaha.org site:
Canine DNA testing could change the way you practice medicine ...
Memorable quote from article:

...Based on the 152 diseases tested, researchers found that:
  • Approximately 2 out of 100 mixed-breed dogs are at risk of becoming affected and 40 out of 100 are carriers for at least one of the diseases.
  • Approximately 5 out of 100 purebred dogs are at risk of becoming affected and 28 out of 100 are carriers for at least one of the diseases...
See that last one? This is why getting a pup of untested parents is risky when you get one from a pet shop, unknowledgable breeder or a puppy farm or mill. Since they don't know, they can mate two carriers together and you end up with an adorable puppy that will later be affected by that disease. This is why Rose and many others here say testing is so dang important.

There are a couple of caveats that potential puppy buyers should be aware regarding the study. The sire and dam can be clear of known genetic tests, but there are no gene tests for:
  • High risk hip problems (x-rays for parents are helpful, however, in Standard & Mini Poodles),
  • Sebaceous Adenitis (SA), which is loss of hair and inflamed skin condition,
  • Thyroid/Hypothyroidism disorders
  • Congental Heart/Cardiac disorders
  • Patellar Luxation (in Toy Poodles)
  • Cancer (not common in poodles; extremely common in Golden Retrievers)
(See Common Genetic Disorders & Conditions of all purebred dogs on OFA)

The above conditions are in part from the poodle "population bottle neck" addressed earlier in this thread, or here, or this one that's controversial, here.

PF has or had members whose poodles were purchased from show breeders with champion parents and perfect DNA genetic tests, but their dog still developed one of the above serious and expensive to treat health issues.

However, the better breeders will often know the health history of not only the sire & dam, but also their siblings and half-siblings (aunts & uncles of the litter), and grandparents and even great grandparents who were also bred by good breeders. This info is often available on OFA Database Search. All a potential buyer needs to do is type in either the AKC # of the parents OR their names.

Thus, while the potential puppy buyer can lower the odds of getting a health-vulnerable puppy from a thorough breeder, there are still no guarantees that pup will never develop a serious health problem or "live forever". With love, we take our chances.
 

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I am listed on our poodle club's web site as the person to contact for breeder referrals. I maintain a list of recommended breeders - people who breed to the standard and who do all recommended health testing. At the bottom of my list I have the information on hereditary conditions (I copied from the Poodle Club of America's web site).

Yesterday I received an email from a person who is looking to buy a toy poodle. She asked about a person near Albuquerque who has a web site (DreamTimePoodles.com). So I went to the web site. In the end, I suggested to the person who wrote to me that she look elsewhere, and I sent her the list of recommended breeders. On the DreamTime site I used the contact area to ask about health testing since it is not mentioned anywhere on the site. I also checked the OFA site to see if any poodles with DreamTime in the name were listed - none were. The owner of DreamTime wrote back to say that she does test but does not put results on OFA (it's only $12 to register a dog on OFA). I also asked about pedigrees, but she did not reply to that at all. Her "contract" is online and is quite a piece of work.

It's a shame that most people have absolutely no idea of what to check when they put out a large amount of money on a dog! As a rule, I have found that a puppy from a good breeder costs just about the same as a puppy from a bad one!

Vita, thank you for an excellent post
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I'm really enjoying the contributions to this thread and the insights and questions. For those interested in the diversity issue, another really good, really long, article is on a website of a breeder who I learned in the course of previous research is a PF member, but not active. I know some of you are familiar with this one already also.

Another companion article which I will pull two excerpts from:
"The genetic health of dog breeds is not a direct function of homozygosity, genetic diversity, or population size; but of the accumulation and propagation of specific disease liability genes."

and

"Breeders who refuse to do pre-breeding health screening should be directed to find a different hobby or profession that they can actually be good at."

It's very true that DNA and other health testing by exam is just tip of the iceberg, but the tip is the visible portion of that iceberg.

I'd had the idea to collect breeders names a while back but hadn't settled on criteria for listing beyond recommendation by a PF member. I decided on the OFA/CHIC model because although their criteria is a minimum standard, I think that a breeder willing to invest in the time and expense of doing the testing is more likely to be investing in their own poodles and the breed in other ways.

My first three family poodles came from what would now be called backyard breeders (tho my unverified memory is that the first came from a woman who showed in AKC at least locally). This was 1963 to 1983. This was the way most people got their dogs, from family, friends, acquaintances, in a box at a garage sale, as many of us remember.

We didn't say we wanted a happy. healthy pup, but not a show dog. It was more like "We'll take this one".
In 2002 when I went looking again, the internet was where I found my girls. It was just luck that I happened on pups bred and owned by an honest to goodness real live conscientious breeder.

After looking online for quite a while I landed on a cute picture of three reddish poodles in the obligatory basket. What really caught my eye tho was just how right those faces looked compared to so many I'd seen. DNA testing was still not a thing, but when I found her website she had pictures of poodles on podiums and that seemed like a good thing to me. I think I inadvertently made the connection to those poodles on podiums and the very nice faces of the pups in the basket. She was only a few hours away and the rest is history. We're still in occasional contact.

I'm off to try to find something that I thought I saw last night that addressed curlflooffan's question about the MCB and Medium poodles and to read further thru the study "Frequency and Distribution of 152 genetic diseases variants..." to see if FloofyPoodle's question about the sampling is answered :).
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Here's the section that describes the sampling for the "Frequency and distribution of152 genetic disease variants...":

Statistical comparisons between the mixed breed and purebred populations are inherently sensitive to challenges in defining “ideal” breed contributions for a representative global purebred sample, as well as the availability of samples from individual breeds where bias may be introduced by attitude differences between breed clubs regarding participation in DNA testing activities. Nevertheless, comparison between the mixed breed sample and our purebred sample–a unique collection of dogs from a wide variety of more than 300 breed backgrounds (median contribution of any individual breed to the combined purebred sample was only 0.19%)–provides important value in confirming complete, or virtually complete, breed-specificity for several disease variants. Such breed-specific mutations are likely to have arisen fairly recently, subsequent to breed formation.
In an attempt to perform a fair comparison between mixed breed and purebred dogs, we focused on nine largely recessive disease variants previously reported to exist in at least ten different pure breeds, and which were confirmed as common in both the mixed breed and purebred populations also in the present study.

Frequency and distribution of 152 genetic disease variants in over 100,000 mixed breed and purebred dogs
 

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Here's the section that describes the sampling for the "Frequency and distribution of152 genetic disease variants...":

Statistical comparisons between the mixed breed and purebred populations are inherently sensitive to challenges in defining “ideal” breed contributions for a representative global purebred sample, as well as the availability of samples from individual breeds where bias may be introduced by attitude differences between breed clubs regarding participation in DNA testing activities. Nevertheless, comparison between the mixed breed sample and our purebred sample–a unique collection of dogs from a wide variety of more than 300 breed backgrounds (median contribution of any individual breed to the combined purebred sample was only 0.19%)–provides important value in confirming complete, or virtually complete, breed-specificity for several disease variants. Such breed-specific mutations are likely to have arisen fairly recently, subsequent to breed formation.
In an attempt to perform a fair comparison between mixed breed and purebred dogs, we focused on nine largely recessive disease variants previously reported to exist in at least ten different pure breeds, and which were confirmed as common in both the mixed breed and purebred populations also in the present study.

Frequency and distribution of 152 genetic disease variants in over 100,000 mixed breed and purebred dogs
Thanks, Rose!
 

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Would you use a dog with CDDY mutation but reguluar-length legs for breeding? Are there any studies about how high the IVDD risk is?
 

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Would you use a dog with CDDY mutation but reguluar-length legs for breeding? Are there any studies about how high the IVDD risk is?
These two links will give you an overview.



In the chart below, the N stands for Normal and represents one normal gene the pup inherited from one parent. N/N shows inheritance from two normal parents.

468490


I have a very limited understanding of this, but remember these are "strong" genes. Thus I wouldn't breed a dog with one copy of CDDY or IVDD to another with one copy and definitely not 2 copies.

At the same time, there are dogs who have N/CDDY genes and do not appear to be short-legged or affected, like the one you described. It's pretty complicated (for me) but the first link goes into detail about breeding recommendations.

Edit: Here's another link too:

 

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Would you use a dog with CDDY mutation but reguluar-length legs for breeding? Are there any studies about how high the IVDD risk is?
I am looking into this. The gene frequency for miniature/toy poodles is listed as 0.57 by UC Davis which seems crazy high, but I doubt it is the same frequency in well bred dogs. The IVDD risk is certainly elevated even with only one copy of the gene. The increased risk is listed as 5-15x higher chance of developing IVDD depending on breed. In Dachshunds the prevalence of IVDD is around 15-24% which is super high but they are fixed with homozygosity of the CDDY mutation. It also seems that early spay and neuter significantly impacts risks (another one to add to the list!!!).

One copy of the CDDY mutation is said to slightly shorten legs but not always to a noticeable degree. However one copy of CDDY seems sufficient to increase risk of IVDD.

It is recommended by UC Davis that breeds with 25%-50% CDDY frequencies try to breed away from the mutation over multiple generations. Generally my thinking here would be that people with the dams can be more choosy in which sire they mate to. So I would expect a movement toward at least using sires that don't have the CDDY mutation. But CDDY isn't included by OFA or even by the Pawprint genetics breed panel of tests. It is included by Embark. So my guess is that many breeders don't know. I am very curious for their input.

Note: I have asked Misha's breeder about it. She has tested at least some of her dogs through Embark for it. She thinks it is not nearly so common in well bred poodles and though it is out there, IVDD hasn't been an issue in well bred poodles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Got me curious about the number of poodles being tested for CDDY. This is just a snapshot of breed statistics from OFA


RegistryRankEvaluationsAbnormalNormalCarrierEquivocal
POODLEEvaluations through December 2019
ADVANCED CARDIAC
40​
414​
0.2%​
98.1%​
0.0%​
1.7%​
AGOUTI
--​
2​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
BAER HEARING TEST
--​
10​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
CANINE MULTIFOCAL RETINOPATHY
--​
1​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
CARDIAC
71​
5,323​
0.1%​
99.5%​
0.0%​
0.4%​
CATARACTS
--​
1​
0.0%​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
CENTRONUCLEAR MYOPATHY
--​
1​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
CHONDRODYSTROPHY (CDDY)
--​
4
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
D LOCUS
--​
7​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
DAY BLINDNESS/RETINAL DEGENERATION
--​
25​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY
49​
2,019​
0.5%​
91.7%​
7.8%​
0.0%​
DENTITION DATABASE
21​
714​
6.7%​
93.3%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
DOMINANT BLACK
--​
2​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
ELBOW
85​
5,146​
3.0%​
96.7%​
0.0%​
0.2%​
EXERCISE INDUCED COLLAPSE
--​
1​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
EYES
117​
7,276​
1.1%​
98.9%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
FACTOR VII DEFICIENCY
--​
2​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
GANGLIOSIDOSIS
2​
172​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
HIPS
102​
31,138​
11.9%​
86.8%​
0.0%​
1.2%​
HYPERURICOSURIA
--​
11​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
KIDNEY
--​
4​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
LEGG-CALVE-PERTHES
11​
1,673​
0.5%​
99.5%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
MACROTHROMBOCYTOPENIA
1​
254​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
MUCOPOLYSACCHARIDOSIS (MPS) IIIB
--​
1​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
MUCOPOLYSACCHARIDOSIS (MPS) VI
--​
4​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
MUCOPOLYSACCHARIDOSIS I (MPS I)
--​
1​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
NEONATAL ENCEPHALOPATHY
1​
1,454​
0.0%​
91.2%​
8.8%​
0.0%​
NEONATAL ENCEPHALOPATHY W/SEIZURES
1​
1,307​
0.2%​
82.0%​
17.8%​
0.0%​
OSTEOCHONDRODYSPLASIA
1​
476​
0.0%​
94.7%​
5.3%​
0.0%​
PATELLA
59​
5,713​
2.8%​
97.2%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
PRIMARY LENS LUXATION
--​
1​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY
12​
2,017​
0.3%​
91.8%​
7.9%​
0.0%​
RCD4 PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY
4​
294​
1.0%​
90.1%​
8.8%​
0.0%​
SEBACEOUS ADENITIS
1​
6,326​
2.8%​
90.1%​
0.0%​
7.1%​
SHOULDER
18​
67​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
THYROID
84​
5,378​
2.0%​
89.7%​
0.0%​
8.4%​
VON WILLEBRANDS
6​
2,419​
0.1%​
97.1%​
2.8%​
0.0%​

This report is interesting in it's own right
Breed Summary Report
 

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Got me curious about the number of poodles being tested for CDDY. This is just a snapshot of breed statistics from OFA


This report is interesting in it's own right
Breed Summary Report
Yes that is interesting. So one thing I've noticed when I look up the miniature poodle breed health panel on Embark is that CDDY is included but it says it's not transferable to OFA. So it's quite possible that many dogs have been tested but their results aren't on OFA for this reason.

I with OFA would separate those statistics by poodle size!
 

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Im confused by the back/spine diseases that you are talking about. My breeder tests for Degenerative Myelopathie is that a different condition from what you are referring to?
 

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Im confused by the back/spine diseases that you are talking about. My breeder tests for Degenerative Myelopathie is that a different condition from what you are referring to?
Yes, both are separate spinal diseases with associated genes. Degenerative myelopathy is caused by SOD1 and is when the myelin sheaths of spinal neurons degenerate. IVDD is associated with CDDY and is when the disks of the spinal cord are unstable and have a tendency to rupture and herniate.
 

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Yes, both are separate spinal diseases with associated genes. Degenerative myelopathy is caused by SOD1 and is when the myelin sheaths of spinal neurons degenerate. IVDD is associated with CDDY and is when the disks of the spinal cord are unstable and have a tendency to rupture and herniate.
Should I be concerned about IVDD? I picked this breeder because she does more than the mandatory tests (eyes and knees). She was the first breeder I found that did more than the minimum requirement by the kennel club.*

*Some kennel clubs in Europe will not give the breeder the pedigree for the litter unless minimum welfare standards and breed specific health tests are conducted according to regulations. In the Netherlands they wont register a cavalier litter unless the parents had an MRI scan by specific specialists. But for small poodles it is only the standard eyes and joints tests.
 

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...My breeder tests for Degenerative Myelopathie is that a different condition from what you are referring to?
As different as day and night.

Should I be concerned about IVDD? I picked this breeder because she does more than the mandatory tests (eyes and knees). She was the first breeder I found that did more than the minimum requirement by the kennel club.*
Does her stud have short legs? Ask her if it's been tested for CDDY and IVDD. Probably not unless she used Embark. Several other labs test for it, but not as part of a package.

Got me curious about the number of poodles being tested for CDDY. This is just a snapshot of breed statistics from OFA.
That's really interesting, Rose. We can see that breeders of only 4 dogs on OFA were evaluated and had the (negative) results uploaded.

However, we've all seen a lot of toy poodles with disproportionately short legs. These are usually bred by misguided breeders shooting for the "teacup poodle" look and instead are adding problematic genes to the gene pool. This is to fool the buyer that the poodle will be tiny. No, it turns out short; it has a normal size body with short legs, which is not the same as being small but well-proportioned.

,
 

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Does her stud have short legs? Ask her if it's been tested for CDDY and IVDD. Probably not unless she used Embark. Several other labs test for it, but not as part of a package.
I doubt he would have recieved his championship if he were stubby??

All of her dogs finish their titles before breeding. Although she might make an exception for the intended dam, because the shows were cancelled due to the pandemic.

Is embark used in Europe? I dont know how exactly the testing is organised in Europe. I can look up whether a dog has its mandatory tests on the kennel club website. But for the optional ones I have to ask the breeder for the paperwork.
 

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She does:
EVCO for PRA and Cataracts. Luxating Patella
DNA for 2 types of PRA
Degenerative Myelopathy
Von Willebrandt disease
Neonatal Encephalopathy

She was the only one I found who did this many. Everyone else did only eyes and knees and I was only looking at show breeders.

Also we dont do hips on the miniatures in Europe.
 

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I would suspect the CDDY test is still pretty uncommon in poodles in Europe. If your breeder is titling her animals before breeding (considerably more difficult to achieve in Europe than in the US), and testing as comprehensively as that I think you have very little to worry about. As others have said, short legs are common in poorly bred poodles, but not seen in the show ring - show poodles are bred for a square shape, so would be bred away from the expression of the short leg trait even in the absence of a test for the gene.
 
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