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Discussion Starter #1
Dying dogs, painting their noses, using "wiggies", chalking white dogs, dogs with poor temperaments in the show ring, it's all cheating if you ask me. Why not show the dog in it's natural state so that others around you can see what you are putting out there? Is winning at any cost so important that cheating is just common knowledge and overlooked?
 

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they cheat, to win. That's why anyone cheats in anything, be it a game of cards or a dog show, you're only goal to cheating is to better your chances at winning. Generally, people only want to win, cos what IS the point of even entering your dog if you don't have any goal to win something? Entering costs money, so ya wanna win as many as you can as soon as you can, cos then you can get a fancy title and say your dog is better...

I mean, why else? *sigh*
 

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I think alot of people are pressured into it too, and some, especially if they are new, don't even know that it is cheating. I mean, hairspray, TECHNICALLY isnt allowed, but everyone does it, so its become accepted. I think its more on the judges, If they dont start picking out dogs in HCC's or with no hairspray then people will continue to use huge hair and hairspray.

even with something as asimple as cording the dogs, or showing without rosettes, or showing in the english saddle (at least in standards) has hampered a dog's chances of winning.
 

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“I would prefer even to fail with honor than to win by cheating”

To me there is a rationalization in some that cause them to cheat. For me, I cannot wrap my head around cheating in the lines you mention because for me only - it says my dog is below standard. But after some thinking - some of that would be cosmetic sort of, right? So if it's a light and not a lot, maybe it's not that horrible........No matter what, I love my dogs and I hang my head proud regardless of their flaws. (although mine could not compete he's flawed with his cute white patch on his chest and his liver colored nose.)

There are reasons there are rules, policies, contracts, and to compete and not do it without integrity doesn't say much about the person cheating UNLESS - as someone else mentioned they honestly did not know.

I am curious what kind of money is involved in the showing? Or is a more competitive thing?
 

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they cheat, to win. That's why anyone cheats in anything, be it a game of cards or a dog show, you're only goal to cheating is to better your chances at winning. Generally, people only want to win, cos what IS the point of even entering your dog if you don't have any goal to win something? Entering costs money, so ya wanna win as many as you can as soon as you can, cos then you can get a fancy title and say your dog is better...

I mean, why else? *sigh*
Ditto!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
So even if it's just this cosmetic flaw (needing a dog darker or whiter) why bother? Why not get out there and show your dog's true conformation and be done with it? If you need or want a darker dog breed better! But how do you breed up if people are cheating?

I agree, a lot of this falls on the judge's shoulders and if they continue to put up dogs that are full on dyed, wigged, and hairsprayed to the 9's, then that's what people are going to do to win. Winning cannot be that important. It's not a game is it? I thought it was to display and get "confirmation" on the "conformation?"
 

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It's a business!

Why do people get their teeth fixed, boob jobs, liposuction, hair color etc? Not only in beauty pageants but also in life? If you want to live your life by narrow definitions, all this is really *cheating* in life isn't it? People do it to get better jobs, better mates, better friends. Here is a very interesting article.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/20/weekinreview/dog-shows-none-dare-call-them-tranquil.html

Most practices are OK in the ring as long as they aren't blatant and overdone. If you really want to be black and white about it, the poodle itself is an artificial breed. The poodle is GROOMED to hide flaws. Long back? Tighten the rear, move the tuck up (in a puppy) and shape the chest. No Chest? Grow hair and round it out amply. No neck? shape the jacket to give the illusion. You might say "oh well the judge feels the dog and knows what is under there". Yes, they do. But do they *remember* that dog in particular when they take their final step back and look up and down the row? Most likely, they will see the most beautiful presentation and that will truly shape their decision. They may forget all about your dog with the perfect head when the *illusion* created by a skilled handler makes their dog's less than perfect head appear flawless as they take their final walk down the line. But why stop there? Handlers have their own techniques that you may call *cheating*. Just positioning their dog slightly to the front, upstaging the other dogs can influence a judge. It is all a competition, just like everything else. Nothing in life is fair and you have to learn how to play or you won't be happy. Don't like it? Well, maybe dog showing isn't for you! Those handlers earn their livings showing dogs. You think they are going to attract business and new clients if they don't compete to win? Go play in the UKC if you don't like the way its done in AKC. Even there, you will see *cheating* if you look for it. I for one would have no fun at all showing my dog in a ring of shaved down poodles. I mean, why not just shave them all down to evaluate them that way if all that hair is just artificially creating an illusion, right?

There are secrets to every breed shown as to what to do to *artifically* accentuate their dog. It is a competition after all. Window dressing is important. Just like when you make your purchasing decisions every day for every day products. Is making that box of cereal more attractive *cheating* when the contents are just the same as the other brand? It's called marketing. Putting your best paw forward helps you win.

It costs time and money to finish a dog in AKC. Entry fees are around $50 a weekend. You have travel and hotel and food. Not to mention ALL That equipment. Plus, in some breeds you need a professional to finish your dog. Majors may not be local and you have to travel a long distance to get to them. Handlers go from anywhere from $100 (ringside pickup) to $500 or more a weekend if you have to float their expenses. Then there is boarding while your dog is in their care. Those dogs you see in Eukaneuba and Westminster? Tens of thousands of dollars behind those dogs. They travel all over the country and the world competing and getting rankings. Also there is advertising costs, designed specifically to draw attention to their dog so the judges know them before they even see them. Some even have their own busses or jets. To everyone except the owner handler who does dog showing for fun: this is a business. There are a lot of wealthy people behind a lot of the dogs shown by handlers. Not all to be sure, but they are out there. They want results. For the rest of us to compete, we have to step up our game.:)
 

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“I would prefer even to fail with honor than to win by cheating”

To me there is a rationalization in some that cause them to cheat. For me, I cannot wrap my head around cheating in the lines you mention because for me only - it says my dog is below standard. But after some thinking - some of that would be cosmetic sort of, right? So if it's a light and not a lot, maybe it's not that horrible........No matter what, I love my dogs and I hang my head proud regardless of their flaws. (although mine could not compete he's flawed with his cute white patch on his chest and his liver colored nose.)

There are reasons there are rules, policies, contracts, and to compete and not do it without integrity doesn't say much about the person cheating UNLESS - as someone else mentioned they honestly did not know.

I am curious what kind of money is involved in the showing? Or is a more competitive thing?

there is NO money to be won most of the times, occasionally there is a sweepstakes where you win a percentage of the entry fees.
I went to Borzoi nationals last year, there were TONS of dogs, and in the puppy sweepstakes there were about 20 or so pups entered, the winner of sweeps got something like 63 dollars LOL

now with poodles there may be a little more in it than that, as they are a more popular breed.

sometimes there are sponsorship type things, where dog foods and products will give you free stuff, but no, you dont make money showing dogs unless you are a handler or something.
 

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The only money involved is money going OUT. Like owning a swimming pool or a boat. Just dig a pit and throw your money in it. Handlers make their livings showing dogs. It is a hard, dirty grueling job. Breeders finish dogs to not only sell puppies at higher prices, but also to get validation on their breedings. There are many many professional breeders who breed for the LOVE of the breed. But it isn't charity and they don't get federal funding.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I've unfortunately found many BYB that hang on the coattails of someone's hard work and money by asking the same price for their puppies as the person that owns the dogs with champions in front of their name.
 

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I agree with the "if you can't beat em join em" sentiments, poodlepal, but I do wonder why there are rules if they are consistently broken. What's the point of printing the rules if they are not enforced?
 

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Lordy, don't I know it! I just saw a litter of the most squirrely looking particolor minis ever I have seen for sale for as much as the progeny of finished Champions. Of course she was advertising that the great, great grandsire was a Champion so they were super great puppies from champion bloodlines! No other Champions in the line....no health testing....no history of health testing on anyone except for the great great grandsire. ugh. I give her the benefit of the doubt, she just doesn't know any better. Sweet, sweet lady. but oh so hard to keep my mouth shut.
 

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I started showing for fun, but I have been told on this board and by some friends that it took them 2-3 years before they started doing well in the show ring. Why is that? If you have a nice dog, and you are perfecting your grooming and handeling skills and atttending 1-2 shows a month, should it still take this long? I know some of it is political, but really...I have met several new people out there and I don't want to discourage them or myself. What is a realistic goal?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Well, there is no point if the judges won't enforce them. It would be nice to find someone that just follows the rules that wins based on her/his dog's merits and not the grooming or politics.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I started showing for fun, but I have been told on this board and by some friends that it took them 2-3 years before they started doing well in the show ring. Why is that? If you have a nice dog, and you are perfecting your grooming and handeling skills and atttending 1-2 shows a month, should it still take this long? I know some of it is political, but really...I have met several new people out there and I don't want to discourage them or myself. What is a realistic goal?
I'm guessing they are saying that because it takes that long for you to fit in and follow along with what everyone else is doing. I guess there are tricks and tips that show off the dog better and it takes time to learn those things. I guess face recognition is another factor too. I personally don't know.
 

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Katsdog: Let me give you just one metaphor to consider: They still print that it is illegal to go over the speed limit, yet I do it everyday and so do many other people. In fact, if you drive 5 miles over or less you won't even get a ticket in most cases. But they don't print that anywhere.
Your picture of your silver is wonderful. I take it a young dog? Beautiful.
 

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Katsdog: Let me give you just one metaphor to consider: They still print that it is illegal to go over the speed limit, yet I do it everyday and so do many other people. In fact, if you drive 5 miles over or less you won't even get a ticket in most cases. But they don't print that anywhere.
Your picture of your silver is wonderful. I take it a young dog? Beautiful.
Do people cheat in other competitions like the Olympics and sports (I know some do but they get caught and then there are reprecussions to those things)? Do people cheat in obedience or agility?
 

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kpoos...well those are *sports* and although people may take issue with this, showing isn't as much as a sport as it is a beauty pageant. And they do cheat there with their fake breasts, taping of butt cheeks, whitened teeth, dental work...why the list goes on and on!

But really, yes....they do cheat in sports as well. May not get caught, but they might! How about gymnasts who look like their 12 but the coach says they are *of age*. or the doping? Or the swim suits that are designed to be faster? Shaving all body hair? Starving yourself before a weigh in to get in a lower weight bracket to give you and edge when your real weight is more and you will be at your real weight come the competition day (weightlifters) Pushing the limits of the competitive edge are what it is all about.
 

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Poodlepal you sure are passionate about the justification in cheating.......what drives you? Serious question I am not being ugly.

I am with kpoos in the long run - maybe things do need to be black and white to be more fair for those up and comers. Some of us are just do gooders by nature. Honestly your driving metaphor - I AM GUILTY!
 
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