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Silver?? Red?? SILVER!! Rant

11368 Views 58 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  NOLA Standards
I cannot help but love these two colors. I might REALLY like to have a silver standard someday.:):)

I have been searching around looking on sites and stumbled across a site that had LOTS of colors (poodles, mini, standard...) and puppies, grant it was looking real bad already but I thought I would put my knowledge I have gained reading posts on here and there it was in bold letters........ahh pretty purple font: WE SHIP SEMEN, seriously - IMO I think some people go way to far!
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Also, I think it's a good way to bring in a line that's absolutely not related to your dog, like many in your area might be.
This comment did not appear general to me. It seemed like a target at SC.
I am stating my opinion on the subject of the thread, I don't see how you got out of that that I was targeting anyone - which I am not. Why would I?
 

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Here, let me rephrase my comment to stop your confusion...

"Also, I think it's a good way to bring in a line that's absolutely not related to the local dogs, like many in the area might be."

Is that better? I am not targetting anyone.. So stop accusing me of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
I am stating my opinion on the subject of the thread, I don't see how you got out of that that I was targeting anyone - which I am not. Why would I?
Thats good. And I stated mine - appreciate it.


A couple missed points, I understood the purpose way back <---- I dont think at this point I agree.
BUT to advertise on a website Semen shipped and with the amount of litters they had is STUPID to me. AND what good breeder would accept that. Someone that would out this on their site is money hungry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Here, let me rephrase my comment to stop your confusion...

"Also, I think it's a good way to bring in a line that's absolutely not related to the local dogs, like many in the area might be."

Is that better? I am not targetting anyone.. So stop accusing me of it.
Much. If you say your not then your not sorry- but if you re-read I think you can see where it was implied as I read it. Mistake.
 

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BUT to advertise on a website Semen shipped and with the amount of litters they had is STUPID to me. AND what good breeder would accept that. Someone that would out this on their site is money hungry.
Well yeah, saying "HEY, WE SHIP SEMEN :D" on a site is off putting.. I agree, and I think, as an earlier poster said, that saying to contact them personally, minus that phrase and the bragging about how many times they've done it, would be a lot more professional.
 

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I cannot help but love these two colors. I might REALLY like to have a silver standard someday.:):)

I have been searching around looking on sites and stumbled across a site that had LOTS of colors (poodles, mini, standard...) and puppies, grant it was looking real bad already but I thought I would put my knowledge I have gained reading posts on here and there it was in bold letters........ahh pretty purple font: WE SHIP SEMEN, seriously - IMO I think some people go way to far!
Well, I think that depends.
I know a few breeders that ship semen internationally, and I kinda understand if they are trying to improve their line that this might be a good method to use. Especially if you are breeding a rare breed of dog.
For instance, in my home country there is only one breeder for pharoah hounds... and to improve her line she would either have to inbreed or import dogs from other countries... so I think importing semen would probably be more efficient for her than importing a bunch of dogs from different lines. But that's just my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Well, I think that depends.
I know a few breeders that ship semen internationally, and I kinda understand if they are trying to improve their line that this might be a good method to use. Especially if you are breeding a rare breed of dog.
For instance, in my home country there is only one breeder for pharoah hounds... and to improve her line she would either have to inbreed or import dogs from other countries... so I think importing semen would probably be more efficient for her than importing a bunch of dogs from different lines. But that's just my opinion.
I can see that. I love the Silver and cannot seem to find anyone to do some research on. I would like to have one in the future but running upon things like that website sours me:scared:
 

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I can see that. I love the Silver and cannot seem to find anyone to do some research on. I would like to have one in the future but running upon things like that website sours me:scared:
Well, I think you really need to talk to the breeders about that. I can understand your concern. I mean I wouldn't buy to people who ship semen as a commodity... so that is why I always ask how much semen they ship and where too? Do they have a screening process as far as who they ship semen too? or do they ship to anyone who pays? How many offspring have been created by their shipments (that is if they even keep a record of it).
So, I totally see your point, and I agree, some people are in it for the money. But I do know there are breeders to whom this is a serious practice, and they don't ship semen without doing an extensive screening process of who they ship it too.
 

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I know of a breeder who only studs out dogs via AI

even if you ship your bitch to them they AI her. It is more convienient, you dont have to worry about a strange dog chewing off your stud dog's face and such.
I am actually going to have them ship cooled semen to me, because it is the only way I can breed to the stud I want.


I guess it is a little offputting, and creepy to put it in bright purple letters. and I would worry about their screening practices.
 

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I understand what you mean. It's not the practice but the advertisement. I don't have an issue w/ AI, but it can go too far. I believe the Spoo at Westiminster last year was sired by a dog that's been dead 20yrs (or close to it). That's a little to Sci Fi for me, JMO.
 

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I understand what you mean. It's not the practice but the advertisement. I don't have an issue w/ AI, but it can go too far. I believe the Spoo at Westiminster last year was sired by a dog that's been dead 20yrs (or close to it). That's a little to Sci Fi for me, JMO.
The dogs name is Ch. Randenn Tristar Affirmation, call name is YES. The sire's name was Ch. Eaton Affirmed, call name Snapper. A very typey and (poodley) male. I copied and pasted an article about it below.. this is the website http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2009/02/yes-was-top-poodle-at-westminster-this.html

http://www.dognews.com/doglinks/sosnoffyes/cover9.5.08.jpg

Sunday, February 15, 2009
The AKC Skates on Thin Ice to the Apocalypse


YES, a product of frozen semen, was the top poodle at Westminster.

Miki broke the story on this blog which The New York Times missed, which is that top Standard Poodle at Westminster was not only sired from frozen semen, but that this long-dead dog has sired hundreds of dogs, as well as more than 10 that reportedly grew up to be dogs with Addison's disease, a serious endocrine disorder.

Does the sire of the top poodle at Westminster carry a genetic load that perhaps should not be passed on? Who knows? A case can be made that nearly ALL living creatures carry such a load, and that this is a very good reason not to inbreed dogs.

This idea is so fundamental that it was obvious to illiterate shepherds living in the deserts of the Middle East more than 4,000 years ago, which is why Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have prohibitions on incest (see Leviticus Chapters 18-20).

So how inbred is the Westminster Poodle? Quite a lot!

The good news here is that the late John Armstrong, who founded the Canine Diversity Project, did the work on CH Eaton Affirmed (aka "Snapper"), the sire of the current Westminster Poodle winner, and he even drew out a family tree, which, as you can see below, twists back on itself more often than a cable-knit sweater,



The bottom line is that Snapper's 10-generation coefficient of inbreeding is over 30 per cent.

What does that mean? Consider this: In an effort to keep birth defects out of the human population (and to avoid the attendant social costs of providing care to the mentally and physically disabled), we ban marriages between First Cousins in this country.

* Marriage between First Cousins is a 6.25 percent coefficient of inbreeding.

* Having a baby with your Grandmother would result in a 12.50 coefficient of inbreeding.

* Having a baby with your Mother or Father would result in a 25% coefficient of inbreeding.



But Eaton Affirmed, the sire of the top poodle at Westminster has a Coefficient of Inbreeding higher that 30 percent!

Thirty percent!

And this dog has not only sired 150 champions (God Himself has no ides how many puppies he has helped shoot into the world) -- there are plans for him, even in death, to sire more thanks to the miracle of frozen sperm and artificial insemination.

In fact, as The New York Times makes clear, the owners of the current Westminster Winner, Ch. Randenn Tristar Affirmation (aka "Yes") are thinking of impregnating her with frozen semen from her own father!

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Doubling down on an already-inbred pup-sicle.

When will the madness stop?

Not any time soon, that's for sure.

In fact, the American Kennel Club, which is desperate for money due to a 53% decline in dog registrations over the last 15 years, is talking about cashing in on a "frozen kennel' program they call "The Future Program"

AKC President Dennis Sprung outlined the plan at the December 16, 2008 AKC delegates meeting:

How many of us have dreamed of breeding to Shirkhan, Ceiling Zero, Dictator or the Brat?

The first priority of the Future Program is the collection of frozen semen for the breeding of outstanding dogs. The second priority is to generate significant revenue for AKC and has four elements: 1. fully subsidize all program expenses; 2. fund an endowment to ensure its continuation; 3. be significantly profitable to AKC; 4. provide any residual income to benefit existing programs – for example: CHF, Museum, the Humane Fund and legislative initiatives.



Do you see any mention in there of health testing?

Any mention of limits on Coefficients of Inbreeding?

Any mention of self-restraint, or even a nod to popular sire problems in existing Kennel Club breeds?

No, of course not!

This is all about the Kennel Club making money.

What does the health and welfare of DOGS have to do with it?

Not a thing!

And so, it is "carry on to the apocalypse."

Why are people no longer buying Kennel Club dogs? It's a complete mystery to Dennis Sprung!
 

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I had no idea that dog was the sire. I've come across him in pedigrees and it honestly makes me nervous. I don't really understand why someone would use him as a stud, when they are plenty of nice studs out there w/o the health concerns. Thanks for posting that article.
 

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If I do decide to breed my males, I will try my darnest to find females
that aren't related to my boys, and to make sure that the colors of the dams line blend well with my boys parentage. That means no cream or white in the immediate background. Preferably an all black or all brown line. It is true that the gene pool for standards is a small one indeed so I may have a hard time with that!!
 

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You don't know why they would do that breeding?
Have you seen Yes and her record?
To win.

I pray her health to continue to be well and that of her puppies, but it is a huge concern.
I hear ya But sometimes breeders will go back in the line to keep that winning type It is the dog show world.. Different in alot of ways
 

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I have a friend who lives in a country very far away, who is wantijng to introduce reds to her area and is wishing to purchase a red to show. If she does she will be the first person in the entire continent to own and show and breed a red. So, it makes sense to ship semen, and makes sense for people to advertise to that kind of audience.

Olie, have you ever looked into Bibelot for a silver... Susan Fraser has been one of the premier breeders of silvers for years. Just a thought.

Why on earth would they resurrect a dog whose COI is so incredibly high.. Just asking for trouble, I would think. The tale may not be told for some time, but eventually the ugly truth will surface in this males grandchildren. What a mess! Thank you for sharing this piece on Eaton Affirmed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I have a friend who lives in a country very far away, who is wantijng to introduce reds to her area and is wishing to purchase a red to show. If she does she will be the first person in the entire continent to own and show and breed a red. So, it makes sense to ship semen, and makes sense for people to advertise to that kind of audience.

Olie, have you ever looked into Bibelot for a silver... Susan Fraser has been one of the premier breeders of silvers for years. Just a thought.

Why on earth would they resurrect a dog whose COI is so incredibly high.. Just asking for trouble, I would think. The tale may not be told for some time, but eventually the ugly truth will surface in this males grandchildren. What a mess! Thank you for sharing this piece on Eaton Affirmed.
Across country I can understand. And I am sure her advertisement is more subtile than the site I seen. I am working with a wonderful person now I am so excited too, but the information is great to have thank you! I love your dogs too by the way. I look at your pictures all the time:):)
 
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