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Discussion Starter #1
does anyone have any tips ?

Enzo is difficult to get trotting right in the ring he wants to run. We need a new show collar and not sure which one to get. Our problem is keeping the chain high on the neck.

We will take him to this UKC show on sunday just for kicks lol I am meeting my friend there because he wants to show me his new amstaff puppy that he will soon be showing AKC.

He gets the standing part right. Now when we say stand ( i will see if I get it on tape lol) he walks to us and puts his face in our hand and positions him self lol.
 

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A UKC show will be good practices for Enzo, UKC tends to be very lenient.
Good Luck to you and Enzo...I'm sure he will do wonderfully.
 

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if you can get a better lead & loop rather than a chain it'll help, then you can tighten it up (obviously not actually TIGHT though!!) so that it sits high on his neck & in his neck hair, and *can't* really slip down! Other than that, the training will certainly help, just keep at it, stopping when he runs, and getting him trotting again, and he'll figure out that trotting is the way to go!
 

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You have to band the lead in with a tiny rubber band. Band it in and then spray up.

I would think that a chain would be the best choice for a dog who tends to be too forward.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
We tried the leather loop and that seem to do good but we can't find one to fit. What about the hex/snake link chains ?

How long should it be ? I think Enzo's nexk is 18" his last chain was 22 or 24 I forgot?

we had these and this one was crap
http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/430437/catid/132/vname/Show_Tech_Swivel_Slide_Show_Leads

this one barely fit over his head ( it was leather though)
http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/344575/catid/132/vname/PARACHUTE_54_inch_Martingale_Leads
 

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20" collar ???? That seems very large. You don't want them to have a bunch of play in the collar. I would think a 16-18" would be fine.

You don't want to use a martingale type collar like the one you posted because it catches the hair. Ditto the one Kpoos posted. I'm surprised that a poodle person would give you one of these because I would think the coat would catch in that slide.

My handler uses the following show collars with a matching lead:

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/429071/catid/132/vname/Braided_Nylon_Choke_Collars

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/387081/catid/132/vname/XFine_CHROME_Snake_Chains

If Enzo is running, you need to 1. slow his gait back to a trot and 2. get him to carry himself.

Too many dogs pull/hang on their leads, poke their heads and necks and sort of skitter around the ring. This is the kiss of death in a Poodle who is supposed to have upright carriage and movement with suspension.

Some people simply string a Poodle up. This is where you hold a very tight and short leash and basically hold up the dog. Many dogs will fight this or they will gag in the ring. I saw one dog actually throw up. I think it is ugly and you will run across judges every now and then who will make you show a poodle on a loose lead.

I think a better method is what in horses we call a half halt. This check and release.... check and release method encourages a Poodle to collect himself up and move with good self carriage. I've seen Betty Brown use this method.
 

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20" collar ???? That seems very large. You don't want them to have a bunch of play in the collar. I would think a 16-18" would be fine.

You don't want to use a martingale type collar like the one you posted because it catches the hair. Ditto the one Kpoos posted. I'm surprised that a poodle person would give you one of these because I would think the coat would catch in that slide.

My handler uses the following show collars with a matching lead:

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/429071/catid/132/vname/Braided_Nylon_Choke_Collars

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/387081/catid/132/vname/XFine_CHROME_Snake_Chains

If Enzo is running, you need to 1. slow his gait back to a trot and 2. get him to carry himself.

Too many dogs pull/hang on their leads, poke their heads and necks and sort of skitter around the ring. This is the kiss of death in a Poodle who is supposed to have upright carriage and movement with suspension.

Some people simply string a Poodle up. This is where you hold a very tight and short leash and basically hold up the dog. Many dogs will fight this or they will gag in the ring. I saw one dog actually throw up. I think it is ugly and you will run across judges every now and then who will make you show a poodle on a loose lead.

I think a better method is what in horses we call a half halt. This check and release.... check and release method encourages a Poodle to collect himself up and move with good self carriage. I've seen Betty Brown use this method.
I use those exact collars. Typically the tan nylon one for regular training and gold hex for shows. I also bought a tan nylon lead at 24 inches and spray painted the silver clasp gold. The shorter lead works wonders and easy to keep all in your hand. Hated the cordo hyde leads. I use an 18" gold hex on Bindi. It just goes over tight, but I put it on before we do the top knot.

Where is the best place to hide the bands? Do they usually attach the collar to a wiggie?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
20" collar ???? That seems very large. You don't want them to have a bunch of play in the collar. I would think a 16-18" would be fine.

You don't want to use a martingale type collar like the one you posted because it catches the hair. Ditto the one Kpoos posted. I'm surprised that a poodle person would give you one of these because I would think the coat would catch in that slide.

My handler uses the following show collars with a matching lead:

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/429071/catid/132/vname/Braided_Nylon_Choke_Collars

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/387081/catid/132/vname/XFine_CHROME_Snake_Chains

If Enzo is running, you need to 1. slow his gait back to a trot and 2. get him to carry himself.

Too many dogs pull/hang on their leads, poke their heads and necks and sort of skitter around the ring. This is the kiss of death in a Poodle who is supposed to have upright carriage and movement with suspension.

Some people simply string a Poodle up. This is where you hold a very tight and short leash and basically hold up the dog. Many dogs will fight this or they will gag in the ring. I saw one dog actually throw up. I think it is ugly and you will run across judges every now and then who will make you show a poodle on a loose lead.

I think a better method is what in horses we call a half halt. This check and release.... check and release method encourages a Poodle to collect himself up and move with good self carriage. I've seen Betty Brown use this method.
Well the 18 inch barely fits over his head :wacko:

I dont know about horse training so what is a half halt ? I agree I do not like how the handlers string a dog up, I always see the hacking and gagging we never do this with Enzo.
 

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20" collar ???? That seems very large. You don't want them to have a bunch of play in the collar. I would think a 16-18" would be fine.

You don't want to use a martingale type collar like the one you posted because it catches the hair. Ditto the one Kpoos posted. I'm surprised that a poodle person would give you one of these because I would think the coat would catch in that slide.

My handler uses the following show collars with a matching lead:

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/429071/catid/132/vname/Braided_Nylon_Choke_Collars

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/catalog.prodshow/vid/387081/catid/132/vname/XFine_CHROME_Snake_Chains

If Enzo is running, you need to 1. slow his gait back to a trot and 2. get him to carry himself.

Too many dogs pull/hang on their leads, poke their heads and necks and sort of skitter around the ring. This is the kiss of death in a Poodle who is supposed to have upright carriage and movement with suspension.

Some people simply string a Poodle up. This is where you hold a very tight and short leash and basically hold up the dog. Many dogs will fight this or they will gag in the ring. I saw one dog actually throw up. I think it is ugly and you will run across judges every now and then who will make you show a poodle on a loose lead.

I think a better method is what in horses we call a half halt. This check and release.... check and release method encourages a Poodle to collect himself up and move with good self carriage. I've seen Betty Brown use this method.
That would be a half halt ;) Instead of constant tension on the lead you do little quick checks to keep the dog collected but not strung up :)
 

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weird tip for you roxy but when I have issues I somtimes work the dog on the opposite side a couple of times. It throws them off just enough to make them pay a little closer attention to you and you can correct the problem. It may or may not work, it doesn't always work when I do it.

Another thing is to perhaps vary the speed at which you gate in your training sessions. This may sound counter productive but again it kind of goes back to attention. Obviously you are going to want to gate him most often at the same speed that you'll use in the ring but changing it up from time to time in practice helps a little to get their attention.

Another thing I'd suggest is to try giving him less leash, shorten it up a bit. When you take off and start gating and he has all this slack he is probably going to take you up on it and inthe process break into a gallop rather than keep it at a trot. You probably won't want him right next to you, it isn't heeling after all. I like my guys, regaurdless of breed, to move out a little in front of me with very few exceptions. I think the Chessies were the only ones I didn't let do that, but it had more to do with the actual dogs I took than the breed itself.

The check and release is ok too, but Im betting I do it differently than what is being discribed, though I couldn't begin to tell you how lol. Somebody a couple of years ago was trying to use me as an example in a handling seminar and failed in her attempt to explain exactly what I was doing to check the dog and keep it gating properly, just like I can't explain it to you now LoL. It's a wrist movement not a whole arm kind of thing is the best I can do.

I can't speak to the use of this or that type of collar with poodle coats, we've used those martingale resco leads on the bichons. They have a similar coat to poodles. With a larger dog I'd be more likely to use a chain though (I personaly perfer snake chains and I can't really give you a solid reason why) or a nylon slip collar with matching leash.

Ummm K, this post is probably long enough and I've probably not really answered your questions ROFL. It's been that kind of day :p
 

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Discussion Starter #13
lol All well thanks for trying to explain on what to do to help. I will try the working on opposite thing.

I think its funny how Enzo knows the difference between show and just walking out side on his regular leash. At shows he behaves better and pays attention, out on the street he does not pay attention to me at all.... ( I am working on this with treats)

He does not run all of the time though

like here in this video you can see he is not running.


The last show he was trying to run and my sister could not correct him probably. The judge ( Amateur class) also told her to not sue the bait and let his leash loose so we are all confused on what to do ....

Another Judge at a UKC show who was an AKC judge was telling my sister to not correct and stop moving if he runs ........:eek:hwell:
 

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Roxy, every judge (haha just like every trainer or handler) has their own opinion on how to do things. Try not to let it confuse you. I actualy like the advice on stopping, thats how we teach dogs to walk politely in puppy classes so it's a similar thing, go my speed or you don't get to go. More to the point though you would be wise to stop moving and start your pattern over if he breaks his gate in the ring. Entry fee's cost money and you might as well get the best out of your two minutes you know what I mean? So if he breaks in the ring right after you start out say on the down and back pattern for the judge. STOP, walk back to the judge, (or walk back to the other end of the matt if you're already gone down and have turned around to come back) Get his attention and start again. Like I said, it's your two minutes, make the most of it. Be warned though that if you do this over and over you will definitly annoy the judge and most likely it'll cost you so try to keept he stopping to just once maybe twice if you reeeeaaallllly had to in the ring.

In training though, I do correct my dogs.. Hummm, I wonder if I can dig out a lead for and try and run saleen around the yard? I'm not sure I can find any of my big dog stuff it's all been packed away since I got married and took a break from handling. She's is SURE to break into a gallop from a trot I could video the correction. Bummer I don't have a class in session right now or I'd definitly tape one of them to show you the stop and start and the leash movements I was trying and probably failed to explain last night LoL.

From the video you post I see he is definitly attentive, my computer wouldn't play the vid smoothly so it was hard to see some of the movement. Maybe what the judge who told you not to show bait was talking about it that they didn't like Enzo looking up at your sister as often as he did while moving. It's nice to have the dog check in from time to time but it would be nicer if and make for a prettier picture to have him be moving out a little more (still in control of course) and looking forward, looks more confident that way in my opinion.

Frustrating but I just don't have any larger breed video's of what I'm talking about, all I have are small dogs and I don't know that you'd find that helpful? Video's are sooo helpful but maybe thats just me, I'm very visual.
 

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The last show he was trying to run and my sister could not correct him probably. The judge ( Amateur class) also told her to not sue the bait and let his leash loose so we are all confused on what to do ....
He meant to not bait while she was moving the dog, right? Just watching the video I fond it a little distacting that she was using the bait while moving Enzo. IMO bait is best used while stacking, but while moving them out it's better to just get them trotting (maybe with a quick sniff of bait before you get started to rev them up). I also think the lines look better if the dog is looking forward more than looking at the handler.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
He meant to not bait while she was moving the dog, right? Just watching the video I fond it a little distacting that she was using the bait while moving Enzo. IMO bait is best used while stacking, but while moving them out it's better to just get them trotting (maybe with a quick sniff of bait before you get started to rev them up). I also think the lines look better if the dog is looking forward more than looking at the handler.
Cd and WP that video was just for an example this was not the show where the judge told us to use no bait and loose lead. in the video he won that class.

I guess we have been training him wrong then. I thought they wanted the head up. How would you stop him from looking up at you ? because we need to fix that.
 

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They do want the head up Roxy thats correct, I doubt very seriously you've been doing anything wrong with him :) Head up though does not mean looking at you. When they look at you constantly throughout movement it throws their outline off just a tad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwvLTMYTH2M (ignore the running conversation in the background)

I found a video that shows what I'm talking about - sorry it's a little guy, it's going to look slow to you like he's just plodding around the ring lol Not like what the swift graceful poodle movement.
Anyway in the vid his head is up the entire time, but he is NOT looking at me on the down and back. Thats what I want, and you can see the pretty outline/movement as he goes.
On the trip around the ring though he's sighted the bait (no pockest in those dang pants I'm afraid) and he's trying to decide if he should move out or heel lol. With his head turned in and looking up he's throwing off his outline and bouncing in his front movement messing a little with the whole reach and drive goal. See the difference?
It's something I would normaly correct sometimes a(little leash movement does the trick) but in this case... what do you want for a retired senior citizen - That boy is NINE! :) He was in the top ten when we retired him to do obedience seven 1/2 years ago. Im not sure but you might catch a couple of those wrist movements and leash adjustments I was trying to explain... I can't see them but I know they are there b/c this guy would love nother better than the tear around the ring full steam ahead.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
They do want the head up Roxy thats correct, I doubt very seriously you've been doing anything wrong with him :) Head up though does not mean looking at you. When they look at you constantly throughout movement it throws their outline off just a tad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwvLTMYTH2M

I found a video that illistrates what I'm talking about - sorry it's a little guy, it's goingt o look slow to you like he's just plodding around the ring lol Not like what the swift graceful poodle movement. Anyway in the vid his head is up the entire time, but he is NOT looking at me on the down and back. On the trip around the ring though he's sighted the bait (no pockest in those dang pants I'm afraid) and he's trying to decide if he should move out or heel lol. With his head turned in and looking up he's throwing off his outline and bouncing in his front movement messing a little with the whole reach and drive goal. It's something I would normaly correct but he in this case... what do you want for a retired senior citizen - That boy is NINE! :) He was in the top ten when we retired him to do obedience seven 1/2 years ago. Im not sure but you might catch a couple of those wrist movements I was trying to explain... I can't see them but I know they are there b/c this guy would love nother better than the tear around the ring full steam ahead.
This is what I meant how would you stop him from looking at you while gaiting ?

I will have to watch the video at home , work computer does not allow you tube lol
 

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Ah sorry about the youtube, I have issues from time to time with Photobucket and couldn't upload it there for some reason.

It's a tuff one in a way. I do a lot of obedience training at the same time as I do conformation so sometimes my dogs can be confused. In one event they are required to look up at me and pay attention in the other I would perfer that they didn't.

I would probably not do this for the first time in the ring, but in training classes I give them a little leash correction with a movement that moves the leash out from my body. Balance in key in movement and pulling them away from you like that causes them to have to right themselves and look forward to see where they are going. To be clear I'm not talking about puling the dog off his feet or anything. Just throw him off enough that he may think you are going to change directions with him towards the inside and he'll have to watch where he is going. If I had the problem in the ring the movement of pulling the leash out from my body would be much much more slight, though if you practiced it enough and the dog has made the connection already it will still be effective. Obviously I wouldn't advise you to do anything to throw off your dog's movement/balance in the ring that wouldn't do you any favors really.

I find that my dogs, like you mentioned already about Enzo, know the difference between showing and training and between their different collars. I also am a weirdo and use a different vocab word for movement in the ring than I do with walking normaly or heeling. I may add the word lets go but "move out" is always stuck in their somewhere. I do NOT allow pulling on the lead at any other time except int he show ring, I want the dog out there and going strong so to speak. How I explain the difference to the dog I dunno I can't say, it just happens for me LoL.
 

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I have noticed that puppies do this a lot, looking up at the owners. They seem to be looking for acceptance about what they are doing. I wonder if just not making eye contact with him when he looks up might help it out. Sometimes just the eye contact is enough to reinforce the behavior and signal that he's doing the right thing.
 
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