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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all - I’m new here so I apologize if I’m posting this in the wrong spot. I searched the site plenty before posting and saw mentions of oversized minis but couldn’t find any leads, so sorry if this has already been addressed and I just didn’t see it.

I’m looking for a mini around 18 lbs or 16”. Yes, I’ve been told that’s very specific but I just really want a mid-sized dog that’s a bit bigger than my parents’ toy. I have reached out to literally over 70 breeders and random people on social media with pups the size I want - the breeders’ minis are 10-15 lbs and the dog owners got theirs from BYBs.

I’m beyond frustrated. Does anyone know of a responsible breeder (does the right health testing, doesn’t breed doodles, merles, etc) that has oversized minis around 18 lbs??? Please tell me one exists. I’m in Minnesota but willing to drive within the Midwest or fly the pup with a nanny.
 

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I would check out Karbit in Texas.
Be prepared for a wait no matter which breeder you choose. Due to high demand, almost every breeder is running a minimum 6 month waiting list right now. Narrowing the selection via additional factors - less common sizes, like moyen; trendy colors, like red or phantom; exceptional health testing; geographic proximity - tends to add another few months to the waiting time.
 

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Hi and Welcome!

You will have a hard time finding a conscientious, quality breeder deliberately breeding for oversize. The goal is to breed to the variety's standard, so the max of 15" in the US is going to be the preferred limit. That will explain why the BYB's are a typical source. They aren't working within breed standards and probably aren't testing either.

That said, there are some breeders whose lines run to the upper end as TPM mentioned, and also, genetics can always play a trick on everyone and occasionally produce that oversize mpoo you're hoping for regardless of the breeding plan.

Cowpony gave a great suggestion with Karbit. They have imported some medium variety poodles from Europe (where the medium variety is recognized) and are breeding around the size you're interested in. They're small standards in the US.

You don't need to answer but your mention that you want a poodle "a bit bigger than my parents' toy" makes me want to ask just how tall their toy is? (they can go oversize too :))

Variety: tpoos up to 10", mpoos from 10" to 15", and spoos over 15". Weight factors in only so far as healthy weight for height, and growing puppies, is concerned.
 

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Rose n Poos is correct. My dog's breeder (Danube) has blacks that are at the upper limit and sometimes throw oversize. My dog was average sized for his litter and he's 14.5 inches and 16 lbs now. I think you will be happy if you find a breeder breeding larger in size minis. I'm sure my dog's mother is larger than him and she was also in size. Reputable breeders tend to breed in size dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thank you for all the info and taking the time to respond! Good question - I just measured and weighed my parents’ toy... she’s VERY much oversized 😂 she’s roughly 13” and 13.5 lbs. She definitely came from a BYB (unfortunately we didn’t know better 13 years ago). It’s so unfortunate that medium-sized pups aren’t recognized by the AKC. While I’m still committed to going with a reputable breeder, I can see why people get sucked into BYBs since they offer the sizes so many people want!

Hi and Welcome!

You will have a hard time finding a conscientious, quality breeder deliberately breeding for oversize. The goal is to breed to the variety's standard, so the max of 15" in the US is going to be the preferred limit. That will explain why the BYB's are a typical source. They aren't working within breed standards and probably aren't testing either.

That said, there are some breeders whose lines run to the upper end as TPM mentioned, and also, genetics can always play a trick on everyone and occasionally produce that oversize mpoo you're hoping for regardless of the breeding plan.

Cowpony gave a great suggestion with Karbit. They have imported some medium variety poodles from Europe (where the medium variety is recognized) and are breeding around the size you're interested in. They're small standards in the US.

You don't need to answer but your mention that you want a poodle "a bit bigger than my parents' toy" makes me want to ask just how tall their toy is? (they can go oversize too :))

Variety: tpoos up to 10", mpoos from 10" to 15", and spoos over 15". Weight factors in only so far as healthy weight for height, and growing puppies, is concerned.
 

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Thank you for all the info and taking the time to respond! Good question - I just measured and weighed my parents’ toy... she’s VERY much oversized 😂 she’s roughly 13” and 13.5 lbs. She definitely came from a BYB (unfortunately we didn’t know better 13 years ago). It’s so unfortunate that medium-sized pups aren’t recognized by the AKC. While I’m still committed to going with a reputable breeder, I can see why people get sucked into BYBs since they offer the sizes so many people want!
Medium sized dogs are recognized by akc, but over 15" is officially a standard poodle in terms of showing. Most of the byb dogs don't have correct proportions and are long in body and short on height. A large 15" in size mini can easily be 18 lbs. A 15" byb dog is likely to be longer, less refined, and weigh more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ah, yes you’re right. Why is it that standard breeders who breed for show steer clear of that 15-20” range? It seems like everyone goes larger.

Medium sized dogs are recognized by akc, but over 15" is officially a standard poodle in terms of showing. Most of the byb dogs don't have correct proportions and are long in body and short on height. A large 15" in size mini can easily be 18 lbs. A 15" byb dog is likely to be longer, less refined, and weigh more.
 

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Often reputable breeders who show their dogs breed for the upper limits of "in-size", perhaps to give their dogs an edge in the ring...Although standards don't have an official topper to their size I believe. Even though above 15" is technically a standard, it is much less common than the usual size of say 22 - 24 inches (or more!).
I agree that Karbits is a good bet. I asked her for the same height and she said no problem! I asked for reputable breeders of oversize minis last year on this forum as well in case you want to peruse that thread:
 

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Ah, yes you’re right. Why is it that standard breeders who breed for show steer clear of that 15-20” range? It seems like everyone goes larger.
The desire for smaller standards may be a new trend. I think there just wasn't much of a market for that size in the past. Things will change slowly. Show standards still tend to be moderate in size. Usually 35-55 lbs.
 

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In all my internet poking, I know I've read a few references to the standard variety standing at an average of 20-21" around the beginning of the 20th century and having been bred up over time.

A likely site was Poodles de Grenier but that website has gone 404 since June this year at least.

I didn't save the links and for the life of me can't find anything on current searches to corroborate my memory of this.
 
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Even though above 15" is technically a standard, it is much less common than the usual size of say 22 - 24 inches (or more!).
EDIT: My original "usual size" range is probably more for European sizes, sorry. I've been looking at European dogs lately :)
I think the average North American Standard is usually between 23 and 27 inches but can go upwards of 30ish inches.
At any rate, I think there is a general interest in the "small standard" size but definitely more difficult to find among reputable breeders for sure.
 

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EDIT: My original "usual size" range is probably more for European sizes, sorry. I've been looking at European dogs lately :)
I think the average North American Standard is usually between 23 and 27 inches but can go upwards of 30ish inches.
At any rate, I think there is a general interest in the "small standard" size but definitely more difficult to find among reputable breeders for sure.
I think size can be a bit like color. Ethical preservation breeders have priorities in the order of 1) temperament 2) health 3) structure as pertaining to breed standard 4) other things like size, color. So if you see a breeder that's specifically breeding for a certain size (or color), you have to be a bit suspicious about whether their priorities are in the right order. You have to scrutinize extra carefully to see if they're doing everything else right first. So yes, you will have a hard time finding breeders that are breeding for a specific size.

It's the same reason there are very few good breeders of red poodles. Because to breed good red poodles, you still have to have your priorities in the right order. That's why all the best red breeders do not only breed red dogs. They include other colors because they're ultimately striving for great dogs rather than red dogs.

My advice is that you're better off casting a very wide net than you are looking for a breeder that's specifically trying to breed small standards. Find out the sizes of the parent dogs for upcoming pairings to see if they're likely to produce a litter with smaller than average sizes.

The one place I've seen good breeders advertise based on size is for sport dogs. Because when you're competing with your dog for sports, size really matters. So a handler is often looking for a certain size dog for purposes of competitiveness. And breeding dogs for the purposes of titling in performance will necessitate good temperament, health, and structure as well so these litters will tend to be very well bred. Of course you have to be prepared for a higher drive temperament in a sport-bred dog.
 

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My boy seems to be an oversized mini from what I can tell (20 weeks-12 pounds). I got him from a breeder in New York who did an amazing job with all his vaccines and registration before I adopted him.

T
 
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