Poodle Forum banner

Safety of Raw Bones

6K views 66 replies 14 participants last post by  bailie 
#1 ·
Okay, so this is sort of a continuation of my other ongoing thread (https://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/266723-how-often-do-you-give-bullysticks.html), but I thought it deserved its own thread with a new title since it's now focusing more on raw bones than bully sticks.

Based on responses I received to the bully stick question, I'm now very interested in starting to feed raw meaty bones occasionally. We would still feed kibble for main meals, but I'm thinking maybe a chicken wing or leg or such once a week for the dental benefits. However, when I asked my hubby last night if he would be willing to try this, he said no, he's not comfortable feeding bones.

His next question is the reason I'm here...he then asked me why giving a chicken wing would be okay, when we take a bully stick away once it gets down to a couple inches, and I had no answer for that. What's the difference here? Why must I be careful to not let a bully stick get too small, but I can let a dog eat an entire chicken wing? Appreciate any more insight anyone can provide. DH wants me to ask the vet if she approves, but I know most conventional vets will say no so I really don't want to ask.
 
#2 ·
I give my standard wings, drumsticks, turkey necks, bison and beef neck, liver, ground beef, raw eggs, and ribs.

We first started out with wings and drumsticks, i liked to hold one end to make sure he ate it slowly. First they might pull and tear at the meat/bone but later on their own you can hear them just crunch twice and swallow. I'm not sure how big your pup is but i'm sure he'll love it.
 
#5 ·
Raw bones are completely safe as they wont splinter like cooked ones do. Hugo will crunch down maybe 3 times on a drumstick and swallow. My friends dog who is also a Spoo will slowly pull and tear at it. They know how much they can swallow, and will regurgitate it if it isn't going down right. I don't give Hugo bully sticks because even the 'no odor' ones still make me nauseous. Chicken bones are quite fragile so i don't worry about it when he swallows them. I'm sure you pup will split it with one or two chomps. It keeps his teeth cleaner. We feed him Raw in the AM and Kibble in the PM.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Raw bones are certainly not safe - the theory about them being 'soft' is actually quite flawed (do they feel soft to you ?), and there are several issues with feeding them. I wish it was as simple as dogs 'knowing what they can handle' - but that is absolutely not the case at all. My biggest concern with feeding any bone (including raw) is the potential for gastrointestinal obstruction / perforation and fractured teeth (have seen both happen). Any bone (e.g. chicken necks) that are swallowed in 1-2 chews are doing absolutely nothing for their dental health regardless, and still pose the afore-mentioned risks.

This article is from the UK - but essentially reiterates the above point (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/17/give-the-dog-a-bone-vets-warn-pet-owners-not-to-do-it/).

In my personal opinion, there are much safer alternatives out there so why risk it ? My 2 tp love the OraVet chews (these can be bought from online retailers such as chewy), and I also get some of the other dental treats (milkbone, CET veggie dent etc) on occasion. I do try to brush their teeth once or twice weekly (wish I was more committed haha) - and neither has needed a dental so far (1yo and 3yo). The veterinary oral health council website is a good resource as it shows which treats have actually been shown to help prevent dental disease (many claim they do, but are an absolute waste of money) - http://www.vohc.org/VOHCAcceptedProductsTable_Dogs.pdf

Oh and just wanted to add - I care more about VOHC tartar (calculus) claims vs plaque, as plaque is what you will be removing with frequent brushing anyway.

For those that still choose to take the risk, here is some good information https://www.walkervillevet.com.au/blog/feeding-bones-to-dogs/. I will add that the incidence of problems has been much higher in my experience - but I worked at an after-hours emergency clinic for close to 10 years (vs. general practice), and these are more likely to come in as emergencies. I have seen both GI obstructions and perforations (due to raw bones) result in death.
 
#10 ·
My vet told me not to feed my dog any bones - obviously not cooked and not raw. He's seen several dogs break their teeth eating chicken feet. He also told me no deer antlers or anything else that I couldn't easily push my finger nail into. We stick to pizzle sticks.

I believe MollyMuiMa's Mollie broke teeth and had to have them pulled from eating raw bones.
 
#11 ·
Yup! For 6 years Molly got raw bones and we never had a problem, That is until I gave her a pork bone and she fractured both upper 4th premolars, I never worried because she was a 'knawer' of her bones.... and unless they were chicken she never tried to 'eat' them(chicken legs she crunched up throughly!) she just stripped the meat and marrow off the pork or beef and left the bone itself. Even though I discovered the fractures soon after it happened it was a necessity to remove more teeth that were loosened with the damaged teeth. She had to have surgery as the 4th premolars are the deepest rooted teeth with 3 roots that have to be removed individually! A very painful (& costly) surgery for my girl! I do have to add that other than the damaged teeth the Vet said her teeth were in perfect condition no tartar and white at 6.5 years old! Unfortunately this has scared me away from bones entirely and I now brush her teeth every night, and give her Ark Naturals Toothless Toothpaste chews, Get Naked dental chews, tracheas, buffalo ears, and Bully sticks BUT NO MORE BONES! Hahaha!
 
#13 ·
Raw feeder here - for many more years than I'd like to admit. My dad fed our GSD dogs raw 45 years ago - absolutely gorgeous healthy dogs - he grew up as a grandson of butcher with the most gorgeous and healthy St. Bernards you have ever seen who were - you guessed it fed raw...
Raw meaty bones should be the biggest part of a dog's diet - not like is practiced now mainly meat with the occasional bone thrown in.
Most problems people have feeding raw is almost always not enough bone....hence runny poo etc.
Raw feeding requires a lot of education - much more than you can get from one post. I would encourage anybody to join the appropriate FB pages and read, read, read. And then be critical of the information and read in another page - and so on..

So bone does not equal bone.
A raw bone from an animal of appropriate size (important relation between jaw strength and tooth size and capability) that is not a weight bearing bone (extra hard) can be dismantled and digested.
What we nowadays call a "bone" everything from a rawhide (yuck! they are so popular because they satisfy the one need that dogs have that is never addressed in a kibble based diet - the immense need to chew) to other processed animal parts and bones that are dried, cured. cooked etc - all those really should not be called "bones". All that processing completely changes the nature of the bone - mainly dries out natural water and oils making it into a hard clump that gives more time to chew but then leaves a clump in the stomach that is impossible to digest. Plus these "bones" are infused with a massive amount of preservatives otherwise the bone would do what it would do in a natural state and rot. That massive load of preservative must wreck havoc on a dogs digestion. So those are not bones..

Raw bones are softer - almost pliable - most can be cut with kitchen shears never brittle. One thing that always surprises newbies is how fast dogs can get through bones. Look at the size of their teeth! But again please adjust the size of prey animal to the size of your dog and its teeth! My dog is a mini - puppy still at 9 months. The biggest bone to date I offer is a chicken thigh - although his most common bone size is chicken wing and foot. He currently does not eat anything bigger than chicken (his proteins are rotated constantly - I am strictly speaking bones here).
Not all dogs unfortunately know how to handle bone at first. You need to observe and evaluate your dog while chewing as puppies (which also gets them used to being responsible with their bones (stay in one area and let you remove it at will). Some are really fast learners others need a lot of help. I would never crate a dog without supervision with any raw bone - the need to observe is there - anybody who says different just got lucky. This observing and evaluating should be even more vigilant if the dog you are introducing to raw bone is not a puppy anymore.

Dogs "eat" bones two ways - they chew and they gulp. The first is what WE think their eating should look like - the second way is a lot more common.
A large dog (my Dalmatian being the perfect example) could eat through several chicken legs within minutes. The method was always the same - chew - crack - gulp. Never an issue. However if you have never seen a dog eat real food - it can be a bit unsettling at first. All raw feeders talk about that in forums - it takes a while to get used to.
The procurement of bones that are unprocessed, fresh and safe is the number 1 worry of all raw feeders.
This is way too complicated an issue to explain in one post. If anybody in your house is uncomfortable I would stay away from feeding raw and raw bones altogether. If you have any friends that feed raw - where you could observe how its done and what it looks like - that would probably be the biggest recommendation I have for you.
 
#14 ·
Great post Moni! Raw feeding isn't for anyone. As well with everything there are risks, but its up to each owner to decide what is best for them and their dog. I agree always supervise whenever feeding raw, I always watch him just in case because you never know. I believe raw is better, i would love to feed raw both AM and PM but can't afford it at this time. There is always kibble available to Hugo but he just picks at it if he gets hungry, and mainly is just raw fed. I had a hard time getting Hugo to eat raw at first, so it takes some adjustment both from owner and dog.
 
#15 ·
Wow, thanks to everyone who replied. A lot to read and think about here as there are many varying opinions and experiences. Reading these forums it seemed like everyone was feeding raw bones, but knowing there are still those of you who won't doesn't make me feel so bad, like our dog is missing out, if we don't do it. I'm just trying to do what's right for him, and this can be a tough decision to balance when there are so many varying opinions both strongly supporting and strongly opposing it.

We feed only kibble now because a) DH isn't fully on board with raw, and we both need to be on board to make a major decision in our dog's diet and b) I don't trust myself to make sure he's getting the proper balance of bones, organ meat, etc. I guess this is where pre-made raw comes in?
While I know there are those that will criticize the choice to feed kibble, it makes me comfortable to at least be sure he's getting a balanced meal. I'm hoping we can switch to at least 1/2 raw (one meal a day) in the future, but I have more research to do and don't want to make such a major change unless I know I can properly balance it. I feel bad that he just eats the same dry kibble for every meal and would like to maybe even add lean cooked meat in the meantime, but again I'm worried about keeping it nutritionally balanced.

I hate the idea of bringing our boy in for dental cleanings (I've read too many horror stories, even on here) which is why I want to do what I can to keep his teeth as clean as possible outside of the vet's office. For now we will stick with bully sticks, I will talk to our vet about raw bones, and will start to do more research on pre-made raw so maybe we can start substituting one meal in the future.
 
#16 ·
<<<I hate the idea of bringing our boy in for dental cleanings (I've read too many horror stories, even on here) which is why I want to do what I can to keep his teeth as clean as possible outside of the vet's office. For now we will stick with bully sticks>>>

It is extremely tragic when a dog dies during a routine procedure like a dental, but it is still very rare. However, I understand wanting to prevent a dental as much as possible. Bully sticks aren't going to do anything, imho (but they are still good for satisfying a dog's chewing urge). Brushing the teeth and feeding raw are the best you can possibly do.
 
#18 ·
Brushing the teeth and feeding raw are the best you can possibly do.
Well, I will probably never get DH on board with raw, as I just got a call back from our vet in response to the email I sent earlier. As expected, their practice is adamantly against bones of any kind, as well as raw diets. In my heart I feel that raw makes sense, but it's so hard when mainstream vets seem to be so adamantly opposed. If raw is indeed the best for our dogs, I really hope someday soon that veterinary medicine gets on board with it.
 
#30 ·
I owe the life of my dog to raw feeding. Very few vets are trained in raw feeding at all, so most oppose it. One of our local vets has sled dogs. They are all fed raw.

My vet used to totally oppose it. After seeing the miraculous recovery of my dog now supports it. My spoo lost almost 1/3 of his body weight at about age 13 months, could not keep anything down. It either came right back up, or squirted out the other end. We tried all vet prescribed dog foods.

I donated hundreds of dollars of top quality dog foods that he could not eat to the dog shelter. The vet bills for lab work, xrays, etc, etc ... I won't even go there. He ended up on IV fluids, refusing to eat and barely moving for three days.

He is my service dog. I finally called his breeder in despair. She said she had fed the last 3 generations of her poodles totally on raw. The next morning I offered him a chicken thigh. It stayed down. It took him 4 months to regain his health.

I will say there are some things to never feed your dogs if they are on raw. I will only mention a couple :

- Never: Liver from CAFO beef - the liver sold in your grocery for humans. He won't touch it after it made him ill twice. I have tried several times because it certainly is cheaper than the organic grass fed liver I now feed him that he loves (from sheep, cows, etc). Livers clean the toxins out of the system of animals. My only theory is that it retains many toxins. I hope you humans will not eat it either unless it is from organic grass fed animals.

- Never: Any meat that has additives. Look at the contents of the meat you buy for yourselves. If it says anything about added solution, or anything that is not just meat I hope you won't eat it, as it also makes my dog ill. I have learned so much about what to eat myself by watching him. I actually talked to the head butcher at our top grocery store. He won't eat it either. The worst examples of this are frozen chicken, and pork often called 'extra tender'.

Enough for tonight. May your dogs be healthy and happy :)
 
#31 ·
Having grown up in a household with two MDs, I can tell you that doctors disagree all the time. They have friends over all the time who disagree with eachother and sometimes it is interesting to listen. This is probably going to be the same in veterinary medicine. Since my pom actually did die from a dental two months ago, I’m going to chime in.

A good kibble is probably more wholesome in terms of a balanced diet. Smaller dogs are at much higher risk for dentals than larger ones. Since my dad was a pretty famous pediatric surgeon I can tell you that size matters a lot because the margin of error is going to be exceedingly small in a dog that is under five lbs.

I have a new perspective on feeding raw. I recently visited an animal sanctuary in Miami and they have wolves. I met a 13 year old Timberwolf and her teeth was immaculate. I asked what they did and they said she’s been fed raw her entire life. Is the risk of salmonella there? Absolutely, but the chances are low just like a dog dying from anesthesia. If studies breaks down dogs by size of dental deaths, I bet it skews heavily on the side of small dogs 5 lbs and under.

What should people do? Live and let live. People will do what is right for them and it is hard to change their minds. You have to look at whatever kind of risk you want to take just like anything in life. Personally, I’m sticking to kibble and brushing my dog’s teeth regularly. I also feed digestible rawhide. I will throw in a raw chicken bone in there with some veggies every now and then. Are dentals avoidable? No. My dog had many anesthetic dentals prior to dying on his last one. Just make sure you find a vet who has lots of experience with small breeds if you have a small dog.

I’ve shopped around for a new vet since my pom died. The new guy is a believer in gene diversity and not a huge fan of heavily line bred pedigrees. Like my last vet, he believes that mutts are indeed healthier in his two decades of experience. I came home and did a little bit of research on pubmed and found biostat paper on mutts. It concludes that mixed breeds have less predictable and less likely to inherit the genetic disorders of both parents. My point here is that people can choose the kind of vets they go to: wholistic, research driven, rigid avma practices...it is a diverse world out there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#35 · (Edited)
Firstly, am very sorry to hear your beloved pom due during a dental - am sure he / she was very well loved.

There are certainly lots of opinions in the veterinary profession, which is why I try to stick to evidence based medicine (utilising well-conducted research - which certainly can be lacking).

Sadly there are pets that die under general anaesthesia (as you unfortunately know, first hand). The risks with small dogs are typically associated with their size as they dissipate heat faster (and can become hypothermic very easily), and also can have more problems regulating their blood pressure (which can lead to end organ damage - such as blindness and acute kidney injury). This is why longer procedures (e.g. a dental with numerous extractions) puts them at greater risk. I am also not a fan of 'just taking a lump off etc' at the same time - it is well established that 2 separate general anaesthetics are safer than one (on seperate days, of course), and any added time does add extra risk. It is also for this reason that I would always recommend blood testing (to look for things like pre-existing kidney damage so that protective measures can be taken). And same goes for not shopping around (which I am not suggesting that you have done, at all !) - use a veterinarian that you trust. There is a particular incident that has stuck with me was whilst locuming at a 'low cost' clinic as a vet tech a long time ago. At this clinic, due to cost, it was not routine practice to place intravenous catheters during spays, and a little dog (10 lb or so) had an anaesthetic complication and venous access could not be established (due to no IV catheter before her blood pressure dropped - which made tiny veins even tinier). Life-saving drugs could not be administered the most effective way possible (intravenously). The dog died. Whether the outcome would have been different if IV access was established, I do not know.

I actually don't operate on my own animals at all (unless I absolutely have to), but when both my little ones were spayed, I asked for them to have fluid therapy throughout the procedure. This helps ensure that vital organs are perfused even if they do become hypothermic / hypotensive (one of them did), and also made sure that they had an intravenous catheter in place (in case things were to go wrong). Both recovered from their anaesthetic and surgery with no concerns at all, but even as a veterinarian, I do still get very worried (especially as one of mine is right on 3 lbs as an adult).

Oh and as for salmonella - the chances of them shedding salmonella is actually quite high (~40% in one particular study), but as you said earlier in your post, risk of causing clinical disease to the animal is low. That being said, remember that Salmonella is zoonotic - a good friend (veterinarian) actually ended up in hospital with salmonella whilst pregnant (and subsequently miscarried) - so it will put certain populations at risk (immunocompromised, young and old people etc).

The main issue with bones really isn't salmonella though (it is one issue, but not to the dog directly) - there are many other complications (discussed in previous posts). I have never heard of a dog dying from salmonella (horses are a much different story :( ), but I have seen several dogs die as a result of eating raw bones. If salmonella was the only issue, I would consider feeding raw bones.
 
#33 ·
I have a pug that is 18 lbs and I can tell you I would not hesitate to have her go under for a dental. 18lbs is more than 3x the weight of a 5 pounder. The only kind of poodle to worry about are the small toys.


Also, if you do decide to feed raw one thing to keep in mind is that it is exceedingly rare for a dog to die from salmonella than from dentals gone wrong. A doctor will tell you something has never happened until it does and you are on the receiving end of that not them. One of our close acquaintance is a multigenerational malpractice attorney and there are all sorts of messed up stories out there. There will always be a dissenting opinion no matter what you believe.. You should do what is best for your dog and the rest is history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
#37 ·
No that wasn't the one I was thinking of - but am sure there's different prevalence reported in different parts of the world (and nothing wrong with that article at all).

And having just come back from feeding my horses, I retract my former statement.... I wouldn't be ok with feeding raw to my dogs, ever, due to the risk that Salmonella poses to my horses (Salmonellosis can be very nasty in horses, and is certainly life-threatening). I keep my horses at home.
 
#38 · (Edited)
There are two primary concerns I have in feeding raw: 1. salmonella and 2. choking hazard, particularly small dogs. I'm sure there are other risks I've not mentioned but these are the two I'd be most concerned about. It is not logically sound that a dental for xs dog would be lower risk than feeding raw. I would feel a lot more comfortable monitoring the dog myself than handing him off to a stranger. Given the option again to feed either raw or going under for another dental, I would not hesitate to feed raw knowing the risk with an XS dog. At the end of the day, it is OTHER people's dogs and they can decide for themselves which risk is more tolerable.

Being young or old being immunocompromised sure is a concern for the young and old. This is also true for dogs undergoing medical procedures. The risk is greater when your dog goes under at a young and geriatric age.

Prior to Happy's dental, he had two bloodwork done a few weeks apart. One was done right before the procedure and one done a week prior. Even a full anesthetic preop bloodwork cannot show you many things such as an enlarged heart or allergy to the anesthetic used. That could have been done with an x-ray and administering antihistamine. Happy was given propofol gas while hooked up to an EKG. They took a lot of precautions with my small dog. The truth of the matter is, the margin of error with a tiny dog is very thin. Since Happy died prior to actually having dental done, it was definitely the anesthesia. I'm glad the vet was honest with me about how he died. He reacted to the anesthesia because either it was too much or he was allergic to the particular kind. Either case, there isn't a lot of recourse when you weigh 5lbs.

You've said that trusting my vet is very important. This vet had years of research experience working with the University of FL College of Veterinary medicine. I don't typically just go to vets with just a research background but you have to have the experience to back it up. He has had almost 3 decades to back up his co-operation at UF. We also had wonderful rapport and he would always bring me to the back to show me the radiographs and test results. It took me a long time to find a vet I could trust with both decades of clinical and research experience. My point here is that an ounce of prevention is worth a thousand pound of cure.
 
#41 · (Edited)
I actually worked at UF CVM a few years ago - so know the department quite well. That being said, I'm not even going to try and comment on what happened as that isn't fair to anyone (and honestly, have absolutely no idea). Most vets working at UF (and other universities) certainly don't just have a research background though (usually split at least 50/50 between clinical and research - I am actually 70/30 but am now at another university). I've never heard of an allergic reaction to an anaesthetic however, and propofol isn't a gas (assume you mean isofluorane). Regardless what happened, am very sorry to hear - but it is very rare in an otherwise healthy dog, and sounds like you did all that you could to make things as safe as possible for Happy.

I just don't want it putting off other readers getting appropriate veterinary care when needed - there is risk associated with everything (including general anaesthesia). One of the most rewarding things is hearing how an old dog has a 'second life' following a dental (usually because he/she is no longer in chronic pain).

I am very sorry for your loss, however - and wish you all the best with your current dogs :)
 
#39 · (Edited)
Everyone feeding prepared pet foods, whether dry dog food kibble, or raw, or canned, or treats ought to investigate the Dog Food Advisor site https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-recalls/

You can get on their advisory list to receive updates.

You will find that most of the recalls are for kibble. People think they are safe from salmonella by using kibble, and don't bother to wash their hands, etc. They are not.

The CDC has this podcast available: Tips to Reduce Your Risk of Getting a Salmonella Infection from Dry Pet Food It was last updated in 2017. https://tools.cdc.gov/medialibrary/index.aspx#/media/id/302971
 
#42 ·
Yes, that is true - but the issue with Salmonella associated with raw feeding is there is often nothing to 'recall' as its hard to work out that was the culprit - but it is a good point. Salmonella has been found in lots of dry kibble / bully sticks / treats etc. I try and stick to the brands that have thorough testing regulations in place (and personally, avoid the smaller 'organic' / 'natural' type brands as these often don't have as stringent regulations).
 
#40 · (Edited)
When I feed my dog I use only human grade food and meats. And I am as careful in preparation and cleanup as I am for preparing my own food. Immediately after eating I wash his face/mouth even before he drinks from his water bowl.

I worry when I see people casually let their young children be in the feeding area for dog kibble, and even handle it. (Children, pregnant women, the elderly and the immune suppressed are the most vulnerable.) Many also allow them to handle treats and give them to their dog or pet. And how many people wash their dogs face after eating kibble before the dogs are being pet, or even being allowed to lick hands and faces? They have no idea how dangerous it could be. I hope you will listen to the CDC (Centers for Disease Control) podcast above.
 
#45 ·
On anesthesia my vet no longer uses Acepromazine.
Ace is not an anesthesia, it is a sedative. It is sometimes used as a pre-anesthesia. The way I understand it, Ace will not block pain, it will only cause the animal to not remember feeling pain.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top