Poodle Forum banner
21 - 36 of 36 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
3,134 Posts
Also, anyone interested in Competition Hunt work would be smart to find non-Lab people to train with. The Lab folks are really, really hard on their dogs. Many of them don't think that you are doing it right unless your Lab is screaming when you zap it with the E-collar. A Lab will take that kind of abuse, but a Poodle will resent you for it. Try to find a Golden person to work with. They are usually a little kinder to their dogs.
I agree with you on this. When we go to local UKC shows there is a lab breeder there that straight out smacks her dogs in front of everyone enough to make them scream I have also seen her pinch her dogs ears when they act a fool. She hunts with them so, I can already imagine how her training sessions are.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
I agree with you on this. When we go to local UKC shows there is a lab breeder there that straight out smacks her dogs in front of everyone enough to make them scream I have also seen her pinch her dogs ears when they act a fool. She hunts with them so, I can already imagine how her training sessions are.
Ugh. :( Everyone has their own opinions of course, but if I'm not having fun and my dog's not having fun when it comes to performance events then I don't see any point doing it. It seems like such an out of date method to use this type of training, but that's just my opinion.

My mom uses about 95% positive reinforcement and 5% negative reinforcement. She's been known to pinch an ear (lightly) a couple of times to get the dog's attention. But it's definitely not a primary method for her. We just find from personal experience that especially with softer dogs we get much better results with an upbeat happy approach then a downbeat negative approach. It's all about what works for you and your dog, but it's a personal pet peeve of mine to go to these dog events and see dogs who look unhappy in the ring. I like to see tails up with happy dogs loving what they're doing!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
It seems like such an out of date method to use this type of training, but that's just my opinion.
Actually, the whole ear pinch thing is pretty standard. Besides my Sabrina, I don't know anyone competing in high level obedience or hunt trails who didn't use a forced retrieve.

But it's definitely not a primary method for her. We just find from personal experience that especially with softer dogs we get much better results with an upbeat happy approach then a downbeat negative approach. It's all about what works for you and your dog, but it's a personal pet peeve of mine to go to these dog events and see dogs who look unhappy in the ring. I like to see tails up with happy dogs loving what they're doing!
Ugh! Agreed. I hate to see the beaten down look. The thing about the forced retrieve though is that the dog learns that the retrieve is real work, not play. Most dogs who have a "play" retrieve will quit at some point when they get stressed enough or distracted enough.

I'm all about fun, but given the cost of entry fees, travel, lodging and food, you want to make sure that your dog doesn't decide part way through your test that.... "You know, I'm not having fun anymore, I don't think I want to do this."
 

· Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Well, I couldn't get him interested in the toys last night. But we did have an awesome obedience training session!!! OMG, I cannot believe how much I love this dog! Ok, so back to the retreiving. I am going to keep trying to get him interested in going after something (other than food)! Unfortunately I live in an area where there is very little dog related activity and most people don't do any activites with their dogs. I'm hoping to find a retreiver trainer fairly close who I can maybe go see their dogs work. We'll see how that goes!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Yesterday we were outside. The kids wanted me to throw the softball to them so they could bat. I took this opportunity to try to increase Cash's prey drive. Only about 1/4 of the time would he go after the ball. Twice he picked it up and carried it 1/2 the way back to me! Yeah, He got lots of praise for that! What was actually more funny was that I laid down on the ground at one point and Cash came running over to me and flopped down right by my head, putting his head against mine. So I told my 9 year old daughter that the next time I throw the ball at her to pretend that she was hurt and fall down. She did, Cash wasn't paying attention, but when I said "Cash, look at Taylor" he ran over to her and flopped down by her head and did the same thing he did with me. Then we tried it with my older daughter, and he did the same thing again. Do you suppose that this was a game for him, or what would the chances be that he would actually be concerned for our wellbeing?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
New To List - Competitive in Hunt Tests with my Poodles

Hi, I discovered tonight that i had some visits to my site - from this site, so I came on over for a look - and viola! You are discussing Poodles working in the field. This is my passion and one of the things I love about owning Poodles - so if and where I can offer any advice - direction to good resources or simply moral support please let me know!

My husband and I hunt ducks and upland with our Poodles. We have a Master Hunter, Senior Hunter and two other Junior Hunters. We have made mistakes and learned from them along the way - modifying our processes for each dog with a unique personality.

I encourage anyone who wants to play in the field - to do so. It is a wonderful opportunity to spend time outside, work with your dog and build a bond that is a lot of fun.

Claudia

The Poo'Pla Standard Poodles
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,285 Posts
Just in reference to the ear pinch, and god and everyone knows just how opinionated I can be LoL, thats a great way to get bitten, though it's correct that a lot of people still use the method and a lot of dogs put up with it. A "lab person" as somebody put it (though one of these two people regularly dishes it out to her golden's not a lab) I worked with raised a bloody blister on the inside of one of my tibbie's ears, I was ummmm maybe 16/17 years old at the time and just learning the forced retrieve. My dog went from OMG I love to train to If you get near me with that collar I will eat you alive in two weeks... I had to stop working with him for a couple of months and then go back and retrain a lot of things starting with heeeyyyy little buddy, this training stuff isn't so bad. It took about 8 months to get him back. By "get him back' I don't mean having him working I mean get him to where he was willing to train at all. It was awful, and at the time I almost knew better. I knew I thought it was cruel and I even as a teen who hadn't yet titled a dog in Obedience I should have stood up and said Uhhh No, A CDX isn't worth it, I'll stick to novice afterall. But I wanted to have the first OTCH tibbie and Howie and I were unstopable. They told me this was what I had to do to win and I beleived them... for a very short time. s

I do know people putting master hunter titles on their dogs who DO NOT use a forced retrieve, but only two. Obedience is a differnt story, I only know about 4 people who work the retrieve in obedience these days who is not clicker training it. Howie to this day tucks his tail if he see's the dumbell though he WILL retrieve it if he I make him. It isn't happy thing, he does it slowly and you can tell he'd rather not. Ears and tail down the whole time, and he just looks disusted at the whole thing. I'm still working on it many years later in the hopes that he gets better and can do it in the ring. I'm about out of time though, he's a bit of a senior citizen now lol. His ears don't come back up until you put it away. Thats really sad in my opinion.

I personly feel that if you have to cause pain to teach your dog something that isn't going to save his life then you are abusing your dog. Plenty of people disagree, and thats ok. I am content to know MY dogs won't have to endure anything I don't approve of. A ribbon, or title, or a bunch of titles are not worth what I was asked to do to my dog or what it did to my relationship with my at the time young show champion who was taking time off to mature enough to be specialed. It brings tears to my eyes even now, 10 years later. No event is worth causing my best friends pain. :(
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
I do know people putting master hunter titles on their dogs who DO NOT use a forced retrieve, but only two. Obedience is a differnt story, I only know about 4 people who work the retrieve in obedience these days who is not clicker training it. Howie to this day tucks his tail if he see's the dumbell though he WILL retrieve it if he I make him. It isn't happy thing, he does it slowly and you can tell he'd rather not. Ears and tail down the whole time, and he just looks disusted at the whole thing. I'm still working on it many years later in the hopes that he gets better and can do it in the ring. I'm about out of time though, he's a bit of a senior citizen now lol. His ears don't come back up until you put it away. Thats really sad in my opinion.
Now my experience has been very different. The retrieve was totally stressing Izze out UNTIL we went to the forced retrieve. The forced retrieve gave her the confidence to know that she can retrieve anything she is sent for. Her retrieve work is happy, snappy and she rocks it every time.

Note though.... a Tibby is NOT a Poodle. Poodles are historically gundogs who were bred to work for and with people. Tibbies are more independent dogs and they are certainly not natural retrievers. From the beginning you were fighting an uphill battle.

I personly feel that if you have to cause pain to teach your dog something that isn't going to save his life then you are abusing your dog. Plenty of people disagree, and thats ok. I am content to know MY dogs won't have to endure anything I don't approve of. A ribbon, or title, or a bunch of titles are not worth what I was asked to do to my dog or what it did to my relationship with my at the time young show champion who was taking time off to mature enough to be specialed. It brings tears to my eyes even now, 10 years later. No event is worth causing my best friends pain. :(
Using this analogy, people would never ride horses since bits and spurs and whips cause a certain amount of pain.:eek:hwell:

For me, the ear pinch was totally worth it but then I never had to do it so hard that I seriously hurt my dog. A firm squeeze seemed to do it for Izze. People should definitely try the clicker training and see if it works for them. I think Cash is going to have a hard time with clicker training though because he is such a low drive dog. Clicker training is most successful when you have a dog that readily offers up behaviors.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,134 Posts
Hi, I discovered tonight that i had some visits to my site - from this site, so I came on over for a look - and viola! You are discussing Poodles working in the field. This is my passion and one of the things I love about owning Poodles - so if and where I can offer any advice - direction to good resources or simply moral support please let me know!

My husband and I hunt ducks and upland with our Poodles. We have a Master Hunter, Senior Hunter and two other Junior Hunters. We have made mistakes and learned from them along the way - modifying our processes for each dog with a unique personality.

I encourage anyone who wants to play in the field - to do so. It is a wonderful opportunity to spend time outside, work with your dog and build a bond that is a lot of fun.

Claudia

The Poo'Pla Standard Poodles
Welcome I asked questions about this on a gundog forum you are on and you where the only reason why I posted lol I don't think you got to my thread but it was months ago when Enzo was barely 4-5 months old.

I still am going to try trying him to retrieve. The hardest part I am facing now is picking up objects that are not his toys.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,285 Posts
Note though.... a Tibby is NOT a Poodle. Poodles are historically gundogs who were bred to work for and with people. Tibbies are more independent dogs and they are certainly not natural retrievers. From the beginning you were fighting an uphill battle.

For me, the ear pinch was totally worth it but then I never had to do it so hard that I seriously hurt my dog. A firm squeeze seemed to do it for Izze. People should definitely try the clicker training and see if it works for them. I think Cash is going to have a hard time with clicker training though because he is such a low drive dog. Clicker training is most successful when you have a dog that readily offers up behaviors.
Thats actualy a myth, tibbies are not super independent. They do have minds of their own but training is never difficult. You just have to think faster than they do.

As for the clicker training, I don't like that term really it's better named as marker training since thats what it really is. The click, if you choose to use a clicker, is the mark. I have yet to meet the dog who didn't respond well to a marker of some sort. If you're a trainer dead set on only shaping behaviors you wanted then you would be correct in saying that marker training works best with dogs that readily offer up behaviors. None of my dogs fall into class, poodles included. I do use various forms of compusions, usualy lures to get a behavior I can mark. Anyway the point I'm getting at is that if you mark the behavior as it is done correctly the dog picks up on what you want faster than if you just use praise. I tend to lean more towards a verbal marker, (mine is "yes") than a clicker. Marking behaviors that you compell the dog to do is very quick and effective depending on the value of the reward of course and how well you use your marker. I also have a negative, or non reward if you want to get all picky lol, marker. 'EH EH!" (or however you want to try and spell it, I'm sure you know the sound I'm talking about) means thats not what I'm looking for basicly.

I've been marker training the retrieve with Saleen but haven't been really consistant with it. For what little I have done though she's come along well. I won't do a forced retieve with her, her temperment is a bit soft for it anyhow aside from my own person issues with it. I no longer use that method at all. I think it's important to mention here that Howie was NOT the only dog I used this method on, though he was the first dog I did that I personaly owned. I worked with a lot of gun dogs as I called them when I worked for the behaviorist here. That was one of her specialties was hunt test training. I used to LOVE taking them to work in the pond, that was my favorite :) I got bitten once by a setter pup reaching for the ear to enforce a "take it". That kind of sucked, but we'll say that puppy had a temperment issue since he later developed one. So maybe he does't count. The trainer I worked for though was really rough on him and her personal dogs. I ended up leaving my job there over some of the things I saw and was being told to do, and here I'm not talking about the forced retieve. :(
 

· Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Ear Pinch Myth

First off, the ep does not have to be incredibly "Painful". That depends on how even keeled you are and how much pre work you do with your dog.

My dogs actually jump up on the FF table and untie the bumper on the line above them while I am watching t.v.. Clearly the process was not traumatic to them!

Second, If you do your "hold" and your "pre-fetch" work with your finger or another thin object (think dumbbell etc) before actually applying the pinch to teach the idea that this is a "must" not a 'may" dogs catch on very fast.

It is the people that do the process like the old timers that have created this feeling that force fetch is an awful process.

Now, some dogs are very stubborn - (and that is personalizing the behavior - it could be something else - but let's just say they want to do things their way) and those dogs are the ones that might verbalize etc.

We have used both the toe hitch and the ear pinch effectively and with little to no bad response - except on the few days that the dog learns this is not an optional exercise. Usually that does not occur until we are in the yard doing walking fetch -- and their attention goes to something else -- like a bird, cat, squirrel etc when I am asking them to fetch.

My two cents.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,537 Posts
Could someone explain the ear pinch to me? I dont understand how pinching your dogs ear would get them to hold an object or know that a pinch on the ear means they have to retrieve.
I would bet money that if i did an ear pinch on Riley, he would let go of whatever he had. He would be very sensitive to training from then on, and would flinch if i went for his ear again. I can just see it happening with My dog.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,285 Posts
A short and probably oversimplfied answer based on what the trainer I worked for did;

The ear is pinched when they fail to 'take" an object. The pinch usualy makes them kind of open wide, sort of like saying ouch, so you can put the object in. It's a way to enforce the take it cue. It's not how you teach take it, at least it wasn't when I did it, but it was a way to deal with failure to comply and provide physical to let doggy know you were going to make him or her do it. It's sort of like saying take this or this happens. If you fail to do your job at work your boss fails to pay you, and or you get some action taken against you which you won't like. Same concept. Every action has a reaction.

If a dog were already holding an object and started to open up to drop it (this would be a failure to hold it) I was taught to give them a good pull on the scruff of the neck along with a correction which depending on the dog and situation could be verbal or a tap under the jaw whichever was most effective. Pulling the scruff like that usualy makes them close their mouth if for no other reason than the fact that you are tightening up everything around their mouth.

Perhaps one of the other people here who use this method might video it for refference, (or I bet you could find it on youtube)? It's easier to understand how to do it if you watch it than to have somebody, especaily somebody like me who no longer does it, explain it in words. Pictures worth a thousand words right :)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,496 Posts
yeah, it's more a case of teaching them that to stop the uncomfy ear pinching, ya gotta hold whatever it is that's being given to ya. Don't take it and the ear pinches. Take it and hold it, and the ear pinching goes away. It makes it black and white, and very clear to the dog that when it's told to retrieve, it's gotta pick it up regardless of what it is, or it'll get an uncomfy ear. lol.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
I taught the "take it" , "hold" and "carry" as separate exercises before the ear pinch was ever introduced. The ear pinch came after Izze could put all of the above together but chose not to. The ear pinch forced Izze to take whatever she was sent for regardless of what it was. I will say again that it ultimately the forced retrieve gave her the confidence to know that she COULD take and hold a whole variety of objects.

To test this, I just handed her and told her to take a roll of tape. No problem!

Also, these skills have real world applications..... last night I was reading in bed and needed the back-scratcher. Unfortunately it was on the floor out of my reach. I was comfy and didn't want to get out of bed, so I sent Sabrina for it and she was thrilled to bring it to me (Poodles love having a job). Good girl Sabrina! Now... if I could only teach them to do the laundry.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I'm so excited! Last night Cash went and found an old tennis ball and took it to his bed. I told him to give it to me and then took it from his mouth. He kept going after it when I would throw it for him. That is until it got lost. He kept going down the hallway looking for it, neither of us could find it. I imagine it will end up under one of the kids beds or someplace!


Anyway, I was just really excited that he showed interest it it!
 
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top