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Discussion Starter #1
After joining this forum, I've spent time reading some older posts.

With a new litter coming ( Sin X Madonna) and possibly another breeding later, Ive been toying with some changes.

I spend tons of money maintaining my dogs. even limited showing is pretty pricey. I breed to improve my dogs, and sometimes get nicer pups, sometimes it's a bust. So can't say I breed for a "profit"

Our prices have always been in the 1200-2000 price range. But now I'm thinking of lowering it and no longer giving a "health guarantee" or refunds

Before anyone gets all hyper, I do just about every health test available on our breeding dogs. Plus do testing on the older retired one if I've kept offspring.

Outside of DNA testing, there is No way to guarantee the pups will be remain healthy!! at best, its just a warranty for replacement, etc.

As puppy buyers, what are your thoughts on this? What do you consider a fair price for puppies from health tested parents?

I would give the normal 5 days for a full refund for any reason. Replace the puppy if it ended up with an inherited issue that made it unsuitable as a pet within 3 years.

I'll attach a copy of our normal pet contract. If anyone wants to use it, they are welcome
 

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Hmmm. As a pet puppy buyer i expect to pay anywhere from 1200-2000$. But for that price i would expect a health guarentee! I personally would not go to a breeder (no matter how nice) without one. Even some BYBs are doing health guarentees (although crappy ones). It means alot to a buyer to know that just incase something were to happen that the breeder "has your back".

Lowering prices would probably be a very good idea in this economy if you are having multiple litters soon and need to "move" the puppies. I am suspect of a breeder that charges too little though personally.
I think the refunds are nice, but it would not make or break me on a breeder. I think to save yourself some money you could stop them and not be worse for wear. I know you are picky about which homes your puppies go to, so im sure they will spay/neuter them and create a good home without the refunds. I consider refunds an added bonus, but i would do everything (like s/n, classes, etc) regardless of the refunds anyways.

I do think that not giving health guarentees is a bad idea. It will turn so many people off to you before they have even had a chance to know you and your dogs. Since you do do all health testing, researching, etc im sure you dont have many that you actually have to pay out on or replace anyways. Do you?
 

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I agree with bigpoodleperson. At that price, I want a health guarantee. I think most buyers are aware that nothing can be 100% guaranteed, but knowing that your breeder "has your back" as bigpoodleperson said is something I look for in a breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I don't have a problem with placing dogs..but I do get too picky and am sure I overlook some great homes. and Some great homes just are not in this price range.

Have lowered prices and given no refunds in the past. and have also refunded( titles earned) for the complete cost of the dog...lol

no, have not yet refunded any $$ or replaced a puppy for health issues
 

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As a breeder I give a lifetime guarantee. That is one way I can get feedback on my pups as they get older. I think it is imperative that I track their health as they age- 5, 6, 7, 8 and so on.
If you intend to stay in poodles long term, you should really get a feel as to how your pups do as they age.
If they all keel over at 7, might be good to find out.
Carole
 

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I really see where you are coming from Tintlet. The puppies are living breathing animals and there is no way you can assure that every puppy is going to be perfectly healthy. If you do everything you possibly can health-wise to ensure you are producing healthy puppies, then that is all you can do. There is a chance in any purchase and that is a chance that puppy buyers have to make when getting a puppy. Flyingduster and I had a forum discussion about this a few weeks ago. I learned from her point of view about full guaratee or no guarantee,I still think that the buyer should be responsible for the puppy but on their own terms. On the other hand, I would have a clause in the contract (I haven't read yours yet) that asks for the buyer to let you know of any health problems and I would also be prepared to help a buyer or replace a puppy if something happened in the first couple of years, but only because you would choose to and not because it is in the contract. I don't know if any of that made sense but I understand where you are coming from I believe.
 

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I'm probably in the minority but a written health guarantee doesn't mean much to me. All a breeder can do is test their adults and research pedigrees. Nothing is 100% guaranteed. I'm just of the mindset that a breeder will do what they think is fair should something crop up. It would be difficult to make a breeder adhere to their guarantee and I would have a very hard time sending a puppy I had bonded w/ back in exchange for a refund or replacement either one. If they help w/ vet bills, then awesome but I wouldn't take advantage of other options. Many guarantees I've seen have so many exceptions, that they aren't worth it anyway. The guarantee only covers "life threatening" defects, what ever that means. I've seen breeders claim that HD is b/c of tile, linoleum and hardwood floors. I've seen them blame LP on jumping off furniture. I'm satisfied w/ health testing, pedigree research and hoping for the best.
 

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To me a warranty means only one thing - dedication of a breeder to his /her program and ALL puppies produced.

As much as I look into a warranty part , I also look at "taking dog back any time with no questions asked (without a refund, of course) . To me, as a buyer, it means that breeder "cares about puppy" for life - no matter what. That only can come from real love and complete dedication to the breeding program and very selective and limited breeding :rolffleyes:

We all understand that only "genetic" health issues can be "covered" and should be.

There are many variations "of the contract" and I always look at a specific wording . If I have a feeling that a breeder is "washing his hands off" of any possible problem that can arise - I run from that place since, to me, it gives a message - "I am here to sell, make money and do not give damn what will happen to you or your puppy" !
 

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I agree with Harley Chic. I've been in that situation with my BC. He came up with bad hips and the breeder wanted him back. Rather than give me my money back even though both were stated in the contract. He was 2 years and competing in agility by then. I was not about to give him up. She agreed to refund my money but I never got it.

Genetics can't be 100% guaranteed. I think it's up to the buyer to do the best research they can and hope for the best. I didn't get a guarantee with Glader or Reece, but I did get copies of all testing on the parents and Reece herself since she was an adult. That means more to me that a contract that may or may not be relevant.
 

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Oh - I agree with that 100 % !!!!! All testing has to be done and clear for genetic diseases and eyes and hips clear !!!!! No warranty in this world has any meaning without those done :):):) - no question about that : ) !!!

I just like to see that breeder stands behind the program 100 %, that is all...Some would obviously "pretend" but than references come handy in that respect ; ).
 

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As much as I look into a warranty part , I also look at "taking dog back any time with no questions asked (without a refund, of course) . To me, as a buyer, it means that breeder "cares about puppy" for life - no matter what. That only can come from real love and complete dedication to the breeding program and very selective and limited breeding :rolffleyes:
Agreed. The most important part to me is that breeder's do their due diligence before breeding, and that they stand behind their puppy after breeding. My breeder currently has a dog living with her who was returned at the age of 7 for whatever reason. It comforts me to know that she has stood by him and given him a great home years after placing him. It just shows me that she cares about the dogs she produces.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Always take back a dog, no matter the age or the reason. I feel responsible for them for their whole lives. My hubby will drive across the country to get a dog back!!

Its just that as a breeder it almost feels unethical to offer a guarantee when its not possible to do that. I'm guessing the general public sees 'guarantee' and feels their dog will never be sick for any reason.

very difficult to protect both the buyer and seller. What are things that you would like to see in a contract? or NOT see?

(I'm talking about pet dogs, not show prospects, etc.)
 

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I have heard from 2 breeders that they werent even going to breed their standards this year due to people wanting a much smaller dog (they said due to the economy, feeding and vetting larger dogs is too pricey for some). SO I didn't breed my intended and tested female. The other litter was the accidental one.

In my area, I do see the tendancy for breeding these little designer dogs and selling them for as much as show quality standard poodles....$1-2000. Heck, it takes no testing, no showing no championship titles to make as much money as a reputable breeder these days.

I feel that different litters may require different contracts. No longer a "one size fits all my dogs" contract. The ones that you really put the most money into for showing and getting points on is going to command a higher price and should have a better guarantee than a good solid pet.

It was everyone's comments on here that made me sell my puppies for $300. This way there were no guarantees, no questions on health or tests or titles...it IS WHAT IT IS! Here you go, one 8 week old puppy, food etc.
And I see tons of other breeders selling purebred poodles for triple that amount. But I can see everyones point that if you are paying well over a thousand dollars, you would expect a lot in return. On my next litter, I will be doing the contract and guaranteeing.
 

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I want to see a contract that ensures an indoor home, grooming a minimum of 4 times a year, no junk food EVER and obedience training is mandatory. Well trained, well groomed healthy dogs will never be returned to the breeder. It unrealistic but its what I want to ask for.
 

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personally- i wouldn't work with a breeder who won't gaurentee. I also dont' like breeders who's guarentees aren't well written out (Ie what is covered what's not)

as to refunds for titles etc- it's an incentive for the breeder IMO more then the puppy purchaser. it wouldn't sway me towards a breeder- the cost vs what it costs to get a title i so little.

refunds for spaying- i think is rediculous- set the price the contract says spay it- and you follow up because you care about the puppies. vs the purchasers hounding you because they want the money. if it's a home you worry won't spay- then t's a home i wouldn't be placing pups.
 

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I want to see a contract that ensures an indoor home, grooming a minimum of 4 times a year, no junk food EVER and obedience training is mandatory. Well trained, well groomed healthy dogs will never be returned to the breeder. It unrealistic but its what I want to ask for.

I agree with what you would like to see; but, I am wondering how a breeder will enforce the 'no junk food EVER' clause. People just being what they are are going to stray from this part of the agreement occasionally. It's easy for a buyer to gush over how healthy the puppy will eat but eventually start to offer a bit of junk food here and there because it is so cute, etc.
 

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Although many guarantees are hollow, I think they have become an industry standard for breeders at a certain level. I completely understand your reasoning, but I don't think you can go down that road and still attract the right type of buyer.
 

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I will be looking for a puppy sometime over the next year or two. As a prospective buyer, to me there are two categories. One would be inexpensive with no health testing or guarantees, and the other in the price range listed with testing and guarantees. It sounds like you have invested a lot in the testing; I would keep it as is. I know when I begin my search for a reputable breeder, health testing is on my list! :)
 

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I beginning to see that the damage to the breed has already been done by breeders; show, puppy mills, BYB's, environmental pollutants, vets, and food marketers etc. Every puppy is born with 5 or more defective genes. I think it time to be honest with folks about all these guarantees/ market positioning strategies. No one can be responsible for everything. All breeders need to test their dogs for the prominent health problems in their breed and breed for health first. There are no guarantees in life.
 
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