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Discussion Starter #1
Just 'cause I'm curious... here's a question for all the wonderful red poodles owners and breeders out there:

Should red poodles have black or liver points? If both are ok, which one is preferred? (For showing, obviously... it probably shouldn't matter for a pet :) )

Is it the same for apricots?

I'm also curious how the red colour evolved in poodles. I've read somewhere that poodles were originally only black or white. How did red happen? (Or any other colour, for that matter?)

Did poodles have to be bred to other breeds to get the different colours?

Okay, maybe I should have posted this in the breeder section... LOL!

Thanks in advance.

Salukie :)
 

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I am no breeder or color expert but I will take a stab at this

Reds are to have black, for showing
Apricots either are accepted but black preferred

The rest I am way more uncertain accept for breeds:)
 

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I'm pretty sure either colour points are allowed for the Reds and Apricots, but not for the whites and creams.

It's generally preferred though, that the Reds and Apricots have Black Points, rather than liver, I think it looks prettier too :)

Not sure about the history, but I'm pretty sure no other breeds were mixed in to get the other colours, and that they are just recessives that have popped up and found to be desired, so they were bred.
 

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Pretty sure Jak is right, labs and other breeds with multiple coat color variations usually started as one or two colors, then as dilutes popped out they were bred to have that color reappear. One of the current 'new' delima is on silver labs, i think the jury is still out but it is a recessive of the chocolate color (which is a recessive...) other examples are the dilutes in dobies (blue, red, and silver(i think?).
Another question though is that the black gene appears to be a recessive... ie one of the parents does not have to be black in order for them to produce a black puppy (zulu, who is black, her parents are brown and apricot...) soooo why wasnt the brown seen at the beginning if it is dominant to the black?? sorry for the rambling... i love the genetics behind the beauty, its very interesting... also note that in dobies and labs (others as well im sure) there are higher instances of skin and immune issues as well as other genetic issues seen in the dilute colors then in the standard colors. white gsd s are another example and the list goes on......
 

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Reds and Apricots can have liver points but good luck trying to finish one in AKC with liver pigment!

Although the Red Standard Poodles was known historically, the modern (post 1980s) Red Standard came from crossing Red Minis with Apricot Standards.

http://www.shangrilapoodles.com/reddog.html

I believe that all Red Standards are descended from this original breeding experiment.
 

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The reds came from 2 breeders, Palmares and Shangri-la. They got together and crossed a large mini red (reds already existed in the minis) with a small apricot standard. Most all of the reds today go back to that breeding. Most good red dogs go back to either Palmares or Shangri-la, Majestic. I believe the standard in Canada says both brown and black are acceptable but black are prefered. I think also that in the US the standard for reds calls for Black points. Hope this helps
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hey thanks guys! Very cool story! :)

Hey! That's the poodle at the top of the forum page!



I now feel stupid for asking if they bred poodles to another breed to get red...
Thank you for educating me.

LOL !!! :fish:
 

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Do their noses change colors? Atticus' use to be black when I got him and now it is liver but is kind of lined with black...
 

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It depends where you live and how much time they spend outside in really cold consistent winter weather. Most do get winter nose. It is like some whites,creams and apricots with black points change in the winter and change back over spring so by summer the points are coal black again. The only two colours I have seen that NEVER get winter nose regardless of their locale are black and silver.
 
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