Poodle Forum banner

61 - 75 of 75 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,432 Posts
I can't say that I've ever paid much attention to dog vulvas over the years. My Mia (since passed) was spayed around six months, but as a cavalier she had fluff...and I guess I just didn't notice? With Violet I check size regularly because I'm monitoring for heat. It seems like in her latest haircut, a shorter modern, I can kind of see it there when looking from the back- like a tab pointing downward. Does this mean something? I'm driving myself mad with this heat monitoring... Lol, it's both silly and important.
Lol. I know. I definitely didn't think I would ever care so much about canine vulvas. I, too, never really noticed them....likely because of how commonplace early spay has become. A juvenile vulva is not especially noticeable.

Peggy's, on the other hand, now looks like...well...a vulva! And it protrudes slightly. It's clearly visible from the back.

During her heat cycles, when it really swells up, she almost looks like she has testicles! My husband was so relieved when I observed that out loud. He didn't want to be the one to say it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,058 Posts
My dog's breeder had it in his contract that he was not allowed to be neutered until after 12 months.
It's not only vets but also breeders who will require different timelines for spay/neuter due to motive.

Pretty simply and generally, a breeder who puts the individual pups health first will not require spay/neuter before the pup is mature or close to mature. They're likely keeping up with current health studies. They'll also usually be open to reasonable alternatives.

A breeder who's more concerned about their pups not being bred without their express permission will usually require an earlier spay/neuter and will often hold the registration papers til proof of de-sexing is provided. They may also be open to reasonable alternatives.

Then you have the breeders who sell full registration/breeding rights simply for the price of admission, apparently without vetting the buyer's intent. They'll offer both limited and full registration and the limited will likely have an early spay/neuter age but they won't likely be open and would simply suggest the buyer pay for full registration.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Raindrops

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter #63
That's good to know as it looks like we'll be going down this route after speaking to her breeder today and all of the information here! I'll keep having a look into it though, if nothing else it's interesting!
This has been a very interesting read. My thanks to all who have participated. As I have said elsewhere on PF I am considering an ovary-sparing spay for Violet, a 12-month old mini poodle who so far has never gone into heat. I am waiting until experiencing a heat with her to make a final decision re OSS vs traditional spay. I wish I had the freedom Raindrops has, to wait for a longer period while I learn how my dog experiences a heat cycle- anecdotal report is that it is easier with some dogs than others.

I heard the following observation from a long time breeder: sometimes a less than straight foot (slightly turned out or in) may straighten as the chest drops/fills out with mature development in an intact poodle. At times Violet’s front left foot appears slightly turned outwards. I am watching this with curiosity to see if it resolves by 18-24 months, though other factors may lead to a traditional spay before that much time passes. I have no scientific research to quote on this. Which is too bad because I doubt I would be the only one interested in reading such research.
Without going to far off topic I've heard that on the smaller varieties an earlier spay of around 6-12 months is acceptable because they have less growing to do. Is there any truth to that or would it still be better to wait?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Hi all,
I know there are a few posts on the forum about this already but I'm hoping to see if anyone has anything to add more recently.
I'm currently researching the best age to spay our puppy. Our vet has recommended the common six month age but many people have said wait until after the first season. Ideally we would prefer not to let her get to her first heat but wouldn't want to do anything detrimental to her health for the sake of our convenience.
I'm wondering if anyone has actually had a poodle suffer with growth plates continuing to grow past the point they normally would?
A lot of my research is showing that the benefits of having the operation at 6 months outweigh the risks. Due to the reduction in risks of mamarian and ovarian cancer.
Research, more so proof of theories does seem to be limited. Could anyone point me in the right direction for more research?
Thanks very much!
Interesting read: Dr. Chris Zink, U-Penn. ,DVM, PhD, DACVP, DACVSMR

The breeder and vet also recommended waiting 6-8 months after first heat. We waited with both our females.


Dogs that have been spayed or neutered at or before puberty can often be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrower chests and narrower skulls than intact dogs of the same breed. This differential growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months, prior to a dog being spayed or neutered, but the tibia (which normally stops growing at 12-14 months of age) continues to elongate for several months after that point because of the removal of the sex hormones, then the relationship between the femur and tibia will be different than what was genetically determined. This may result in an abnormal angle at the stifle and a longer (and therefore heavier) tibia placing increased stress on the cranial cruciate ligament (of the knee or stifle joint). It is well known that spayed and neutered dogs are more likely to be overweight or obese than sexually intact dogs and this can be a contributing factor for orthopedic diseases. Thus, keeping the spay/neutered canine athlete lean can help mitigate the increase rise of orthopedic conditions.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,817 Posts
The concerns about cancer and bone growth are well worth considering. I think options for exercise and socialization are also worth thinking about. Doggie daycare and boarding facilities often won't accept intact dogs over 6 months of age. Many dog parks also do not allow intact dogs. I'm working from home, I have access to a dog walker, and I have a fenced backyard. Therefore, I'm not dependent on doggie daycare. However, I would have liked to take Galen to some doggie play dates, as he doesn't get to play with other dogs very much right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,306 Posts
The concerns about cancer and bone growth are well worth considering. I think options for exercise and socialization are also worth thinking about. Doggie daycare and boarding facilities often won't accept intact dogs over 6 months of age. Many dog parks also do not allow intact dogs. I'm working from home, I have access to a dog walker, and I have a fenced backyard. Therefore, I'm not dependent on doggie daycare. However, I would have liked to take Galen to some doggie play dates, as he doesn't get to play with other dogs very much right now.
I was worried about this too, but I think that must depend on the community.

Annie went to doggy daycare at 8 mo, unspayed at a local kennel, and the only rules i have seen at the dog parks i have been to (4 municipalitie) have been "not in heat" which is fair. Plenty of unfixed dogs.

3/4 of the dog kennels i have looked at have all said 'not in heat' as their criteria as well (there was one that required spaying after 6 months). I was also lucky to have several family members, including one who has an intact co-own female as alternatives for dog sitting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,842 Posts
I was worried about this too, but I think that must depend on the community.

Annie went to doggy daycare at 8 mo, unspayed at a local kennel, and the only rules i have seen at the dog parks i have been to (4 municipalitie) have been "not in heat" which is fair. Plenty of unfixed dogs.

3/4 of the dog kennels i have looked at have all said 'not in heat' as their criteria as well (there was one that required spaying after 6 months). I was also lucky to have several family members, including one who has an intact co-own female as alternatives for dog sitting.
I have seen similar things in the places I've lived. I've never seen a dog park that doesn't allow intact dogs but I've heard about them so they must exist somewhere. Not bringing a dog in heat is sensible. Even if there were only females, a dog in heat is still likely to stir things up and cause fights among females. The daycares around me do allow intact males but I have seen some that don't allow intact females over a certain age. I don't think it's all of them though. Personally I have always worried too much to take my dog to a daycare. I don't trust other people to be good judges of his behavior.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,306 Posts
I have seen similar things in the places I've lived. I've never seen a dog park that doesn't allow intact dogs but I've heard about them so they must exist somewhere. Not bringing a dog in heat is sensible. Even if there were only females, a dog in heat is still likely to stir things up and cause fights among females. The daycares around me do allow intact males but I have seen some that don't allow intact females over a certain age. I don't think it's all of them though. Personally I have always worried too much to take my dog to a daycare. I don't trust other people to be good judges of his behavior.
Agreed on daycare. I wasnt a fan, but it was when Annie was going through seperation anxiety. So it was either daycare, or have her howl and try and bust out of her crate for HOURS while i was at work (dangerous, and not fair to downstairs tenant). Daycare allowed me the time to work on it, without stressing her but i was glad to stop.
Daycare is where she picked up her squirrel obsession, and i think for a while afterwards she wasnt as polite with playing with other dogs - she apparently played for almost the entire 8 hrs, and "8 hrs of running play" is not the energy level i want to cultivate! Still, i was grateful for the option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,842 Posts
That's good to know as it looks like we'll be going down this route after speaking to her breeder today and all of the information here! I'll keep having a look into it though, if nothing else it's interesting!
Without going to far off topic I've heard that on the smaller varieties an earlier spay of around 6-12 months is acceptable because they have less growing to do. Is there any truth to that or would it still be better to wait?
Yes there is some truth to that in that they do finish growth earlier so are less likely to be affected by orthopedic issues. UC Davis did still detect increased risk for neutering <6 mo. but you likely would be fine neutering closer to a year. Personally I think there are still benefits to letting them go the full 18 or 24 months in terms of their mental development. Altering the hormones can have a big effect on confidence and anxiety. I think it is ideal for them to completely mature and develop normal adult behavior patterns before the hormones are removed. My 1.5 year old mini still has some naive puppy behaviors that I think will likely change as he finishes maturing.

That said, sometimes dogs have significant behavioral issues that necessitate neutering before one would like. Especially with males since obsessive humping (especially of people) or intrasexual aggression can impact a dog's ability to engage socially. It's something that needs to be decided with the individual dog in mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
667 Posts
In my area there is at least 1 daycare that allows intact or OSS’d dogs. I’ve never noticed any signs regarding limitations at out public dog parks, but I don’t go so may be out of touch. In my area daycare is mostly run by dog trainers and their assistants, so the basic rules and management techniques appear good. Violet never made it past their intake assessment (3x), I realized it wasn’t her cup of tea. Nothing bad happened but she didn’t enjoy it. I intended it to be supplemental socialization two hours a week while I helped my mom. Violet prefers to help me help my mom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Hi all,
I know there are a few posts on the forum about this already but I'm hoping to see if anyone has anything to add more recently.
I'm currently researching the best age to spay our puppy. Our vet has recommended the common six month age but many people have said wait until after the first season. Ideally we would prefer not to let her get to her first heat but wouldn't want to do anything detrimental to her health for the sake of our convenience.
I'm wondering if anyone has actually had a poodle suffer with growth plates continuing to grow past the point they normally would?
A lot of my research is showing that the benefits of having the operation at 6 months outweigh the risks. Due to the reduction in risks of mamarian and ovarian cancer.
Research, more so proof of theories does seem to be limited. Could anyone point me in the right direction for more research?
Thanks very much!
I had a male standard that was neutered by the breeder at 9 weeks. This was a number of years ago, before I had learned about the problems with early spay/neuter. Sidney should have been about 25” at the withers when full grown. He grew to be slightly over 28” at the withers. He also suffered from hip displasia in his later years. Sadly, I had to have him put down, at 11.5 years. I would never had taken Sidney as a puppy had I known all that happened. Since then, I have had three females, all of which were spayed at 13+ months, all before their first heat cycle. None of them are oversized and none suffer from hip displasia. No problem with mammalian cancer or ovarian cancer.
If your puppy is a STANDARD poodle pup, waiting until she is 12-13 months would probably be a good idea. If she is a mini or toy, I’d ask for some suggestions from owners or breeders of that poodle variety.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter #72
Thanks for posting, sorry to hear that it must have been tough. It's good to know you never had any ill affects spaying later but before first heat!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
The best research and advice on spay/neuter is available to you by phone (or in person) with your trusted vet and your breeder. Listen to them. They will be able to cut through the volume of (sometimes suspect ) research and data for you, and advise you based on real experience and knowledge.
Your vet and your breeder are more reliable sources than anything you can get online, including here.
My Vet and Breeder do not agree on neutering age. For my male Poodle my Breeder says 2 years or never, my Vet says 6 months. I am trying to wait until 18 months at least, two years if I can. My husband constantly bugs me to get it done now. Joey will be 1 year old the 10th of this month.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
I had my toy poodle spayed at 6 months. She's totally fine with no issues Cuddly, energetic and happy. Definitely up to the dog owner and vet though. I was very worried about complications. I altered some baby onesies to fit her while she healed from the incisions. Also kept her warm during the winter here in Canada 😊
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
I had my toy poodle spayed at 6 months. She's totally fine with no issues Cuddly, energetic and happy. Definitely up to the dog owner and vet though. I was very worried about complications. I altered some baby onesies to fit her while she healed from the incisions. Also kept her warm during the winter here in Canada 😊
I don't know all the facts but I think it is "thought" that the small dogs (toy) are less prone to problems with an earlier spay. They mature faster or something. And something like hip dysplasia is not common in small dogs. That said, not all dogs have a problem with early neuter or spay. My rescued 65 lb. mixed breed was 4 months when I adopted him and already neutered. He will be 13 in January 2021
 
61 - 75 of 75 Posts
Top