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It frustrates me to no end that these so-called 'rescues' buy dogs off of literal puppy mills, then point their fingers at the public and say, "no, you're the bad ones!". Sounds like passing the buck off to me.

I read this piece a while ago and it shook up what I thought things were supposed to be like. I was upset for a couple days.
Detailed Discussion of Dog Auctions and Retail Rescue | Animal Legal & Historical Center

In the end, you're still shopping when you go to these shelters. You're just shopping through a third party at a discounted price buying a broken product that allows more broken products to come in, regardless of where they were manufactured, while the place ignores and even occasionally partners with the real problem, which is the manufacturers! I just... Grr. Not too many things grind my gears, but hypocrisy is one of them. If I ever adopt, you can be sure that I'm going to be doing some snooping around to make sure the dogs are actually being rescued.
 

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I feel its strange to ask people to decide first whether they want to rescue or go to a breeder. You need to understand first what you want in a dog and then contemplate whether you are more likely to find that in a rescue or with a breeder.

I tried to rescue for about 7months before contacting breeders. I don't regret that at all, the situation that I was in pre-covid meant that it would have been rather irresponsible of me to get a 8 week old puppy unless I would have paid for a puppy nanny for 8 hours a day. For me trying to get an adult rescue rather than finding a breeder for a puppy was very much the responsible thing to do. However, the process was more disappointing I have to say. I had my guard up when looking for breeders and I didn't have the same hesitations when interacting with non-profits and had some disappointing experiences.

My situation has changed, I am getting a puppy from a fantastic breeder next May and I will be home with it pretty much 24/7. But I want to make it clear that although I was technically unsuccessful in getting a rescue that is not a bad thing. It is also not a bad thing when I would visit sometimes and found that nearly all of the dogs were extremely challenging dogs. This means that most dogs are not being abandoned unless absolutely necessary. This is success! I don't want to have my pick of nicely behaved and sweet natured little dogs in the shelter because that means that they are in need of help!

Plus people don't have to pick which camp they want to be in and stay in it forever. I will definately look at rescues again in the future, my requirements will change as my life changes. I can definately see myself adopting a little old senior dog one day, its just not practically and financially a good idea with our current lifestyle.
 

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I will say that our experience with poodle rescue cannot be generalized to other breeds, and this is a part of the nuance required when talking about breeding and adoption. I know here in the southeastern US, there are lovely hunting breeds, including English Springer Spaniels, that are abandoned in the woods for not hunting. When found, they're often transported to the NE for adoption. Many of them have lovely personalities and are free of long-term health concerns. Poodles, especially standard poodles, are differently situated, where demand grossly exceeds supply, and very few wind up in rescue. The ones that do show up in rescue usually have the health and temperament problems we've already discussed.
 

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@Liz makes an excellent point. Breeder vs Rescue debate doesn't really make sense without specifics. It depends so much on the availability in your area and the kind of dog/breed that you are looking for.

The same goes for breeders though. I would rather pick another breed and get a havenese or lowchen than go to a bad poodle breeder. I would also always go to a shelter or a rescue rather than doing business with a puppymill or BYB. If a persons tells me that they won't spend more than 500 euro on the dog then I always say you have to rescue, there is no way you are finding an ethical breeder for that.
 

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It frustrates me to no end that these so-called 'rescues' buy dogs off of literal puppy mills, then point their fingers at the public and say, "no, you're the bad ones!". Sounds like passing the buck off to me.

I read this piece a while ago and it shook up what I thought things were supposed to be like. I was upset for a couple days.
Detailed Discussion of Dog Auctions and Retail Rescue | Animal Legal & Historical Center

In the end, you're still shopping when you go to these shelters. You're just shopping through a third party at a discounted price buying a broken product that allows more broken products to come in, regardless of where they were manufactured, while the place ignores and even occasionally partners with the real problem, which is the manufacturers! I just... Grr. Not too many things grind my gears, but hypocrisy is one of them. If I ever adopt, you can be sure that I'm going to be doing some snooping around to make sure the dogs are actually being rescued.
FloofyPoodle, that article was eye opening. I've never heard if that before, you always hear that rescues and shelters are good places to go. Though when I first started researching about dogs, reading about how shelters have to fly in dogs from other countries to meet the demand during COVID for shelter dogs sounded crazy too.
 

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As someone who holds rescue near and dear to my heart, I have to clarify a few things. With my rescue, we mostly do small special needs or senior dogs. So I don't get as many applications as rescue who have younger dogs I am sure. But I haven't ever said no to someone just based on the fact they rent or live in an apartment. Or just on the basis they have kids or are older. I never make a profit on the dogs, and in fact have gone it to debt to help the dogs. I am small so don't get many donations at all. I do it because I just love seniors and can't stand the thought of them in a shelter without someone to love them. I am sure there are some rescues who are in it to flip dogs and get money, but most are not. It is a tremendous amount of work doing rescue and at times I have wanted to just stop because I felt so frazzled and stressed. You have to deal with unknows, and medical issues and behaviour issues and no money sometimes. I have had dogs come in totally bald from infections, with bladder stones, blind, deaf ,scared. I had one dog that didn't move for about 2 months and had to be carried in and out of the house. She is now with a family and actually enjoys walks! You have to deal with transport and home visits and people getting angry you even charge an adoption fee. Like I said before I have only had a few dogs with serious behaviour issues I was worried about. I am not doing rescue now as the virus has made things difficult. But I will eventually get back into it. I do not feel guilty about having Niko, and I think if people want to go to a good breeder they definitely should. But I can also see why rescue people get stressed and want people to adopt a rescue. Because we see so many dogs that desperately want someone to love them. I had a dog last year come in who was 15 years old and blind and deaf. She was a toy poodle. The owner turned her in because he didn't want an old dog. And she was one of the lucky ones, at least she had a good life until that point. My little one did not and her teeth were so rotten by the time she came into rescue they all had to be pulled.
 

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I watched an adoption event at a local pet box-store. They had a Pit Bull mix that I heard 8 different stories based on the potential person who might adopt her. The dog was about as impressed as I was. The manager of the store caught me & asked if I might be interested in doing some walk arounds with dogs & see if I could get a read on a couple of dogs. The first was the one the manager said, "I don't care what the rescue says, the dog seems aggressive." The manager was right about the dog, wrong about the Pit Mix. The pit wasn't aggressive, she just had a low threshold for silliness. If you talked to her, treated her like a friend... she was great. If you started talking baby-talk or acting silly or exaggerated with her, she looked irritated & wanted nothing to do with the person. (I used to feel that way about adults when I was a very small child). I was lucky enough to help the Pit find a home with a grizzly fellow who was no nonsense & after he adopted her, I walked him through basic obedience which I'd trained with her in the store, spooky smart dog. The man picked it up as quickly as his new dog. Last time I saw them, they were made for each other.

Some rescues have a really good set of people to evaluate & work with the dogs. Others have people who are certain they have answers but they're not grounded in reality. That's what happened in this event. They were just telling people what they wanted to hear to get the dogs homes. That's not cool.
 

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After that I was not willing to try it again. My heart could not take it. I also learned that when you need something really specific, you cannot trust rescue descriptions. If you need a dog that is dog friendly, kid friendly, small animal friendly, non reactive, etc... there is no guarantee that your new rescue won't turn into your worst nightmare once they've been in your home a few months and settled in and their true personality starts to show.
We tried to adopt a young dog from a rescue several years. The rescue promised us that the dog was 'great with kids'. As soon as we brought the dog home, it was clear that she was very reactive, displaying serious resource-guarding and had an intense fear of men. Two days in, she slipped the leash and leapt over the couch to bite my first grader. It was utterly unprovoked; I'd been really careful to manage their interactions.

We got a canine behavioral specialist to evaluate her who told us that a) she was not a puppy, she was probably three or four, b) she did indeed have a lot of behavioral issues which would take considerable time and resources to work through, and c) she might never be safe around our children. It was just a heartbreaking experience. I think we could have possibly worked with her if we didn't have children in the home, but we did. We took her back to the rescue, who didn't want to hear about the bite (which went through our kid's pants and left deep bruising). They put her straight back up on the website as 'great with kids' the very next day. She was utterly set up to fail by them.
 

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If you really want to get yourself feeling dazed and confused about the dog selling industry read The Dog Merchants by Kim Kavin. I find it very tough reading so I end up reading a chapter and then putting it aside for a while. You will find yourself hating the concept of a dog auction at one moment and then thinking there are some aspects of quality checks along the way that sound okay at some level. My real bottom line POV though is that no such chain of wholesale marketing should exist if we really want to reduce the number of dogs looking for forever homes.

Thomazine that is a very sad story and I am afraid not all that uncommon. Poor you and poor little doggo.
 

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To return to the original poster, for what it's worth, I asked my retired psychologist husband why people try to decide for others where to get a dog. His theory is that it's a way to publicly proclaim their own virtue.

And he says one good response is "It's always interesting to hear your point of view" then move the conversation on. Never justify your decision because that leaves it open to discussion.

Keep in mind that the man in question is retired and mostly practices his wiles on Normie and me.
 

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Since we talked about choosing the RIGHT dog for the home and since I seem to need to get some of my own aggression out...

I mentioned my rehome/rescue kryptonite dogs are the young working breeds who need a decent home.

In related ish news, there is someone on a local buy and sell offering a 7 mo Dutch Shepherd. "Rare" brindle (brindle is in breed standard). "For sale or for trade for a small puppy".

I am not against people rehoming a dog if they realize they are not a right fit, but to try and trade it in on a newer model? Blood boiling. There is a small breed adult dog in some of the pictures, you can bet whoever chose the breed didn't think past "cool tough puppy" and into "will it fit my lifestyle?" Nothing about the dog, the training, the personality, just the price paid and wanted and the vet stuff included. The comments on the post are outraged, too, and it has quickly been taken down. Mom showed me the ad since she knows I love shepherds, and I went through my laundry list of reasons why I can't own the dog. But, see, I HAVE a laundry list of conditions that my life must pass, before I can have a dog like that, or, really, any other dog. I don't just blindly go out and get one, then rehome it when it becomes inconvenient.

Anyway- my two cents are, back to original topic. If you are doing your best to choose a dog that is RIGHT for your home, and give it the training and socialization that it needs to make sure it has a good start, and a good home even if something unthinkable happens and you need to rehome it, then you are doing a whole bunch to address the problem of shelter dogs.
 

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Great advice from your personal psychologist, Dianaleez! It seems to be called “virtue signaling”now instead of “guilt trip”, but the effect is the same. Someone other than you, knows best. Nonsense! We’re a one dog household, and I get to choose what that one dog will be.

I have a friend who had s revolving door of Golden Retriever rescues. She spent thousands on everyone of them. She would take the seniors, the sads,and was rewarded with heartbreak after all of her efforts. I fell in love with one in the parade of Golden’s, a handsome senior named Waldo. When she told me, he had to be euthanized it broke my heart, for both of them. Eventually, she couldn’t bear the toll of losses from seniors and adopted a young Heinz 57 mix, Daisy, whom she jogs with every day. I did ask her, before Daisy, if she might consider a breeder. Didn’t press it, because she was so anxious for the next fixer upper, bless her heart. Sincerely, for extreme rescue and rehabilitation. Not me. No excuses, no shame for buying from a breeder.
 

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"What rescue did you get her from?" "None. I got her from a great CKC breeder. "
She snatched back her hand, took a big step back, and her eyes widened. It was as if responsible dog breeder shopping was contagious, and a religious heresy.
He asked me what rescue I got them from and I said they were from 2 different responsible breeders. He sneared at me and walked away.

Those strangers are good examples of the Cancel Culture mentality. People think and live differently and want different things. The CC crowd can't abide by this and be quite rude and reject others completely over a few differences. They are a nuisance.

I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound.
Ah well, close friends and family with different values should be able to express them, otherwise the relationship is based on a lie where you never know what they think or why. They feel what they feel, which is legit.

Best you can do in cases like this, whether the topic is poodles, politics or career choices, is nod to sympathetically and say something like, "I respect your feelings and appreciate you for sharing them with me, but I've thought through this and it's what I really want/ like/ believe/ plan to do. I'm not going to change my mind."

And like a big Thanksgiving dinner conversation that is headed for a power struggle over whose right and whose wrong, change the subject.
 

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Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.
I totally agree and understand everything you are saying. I went through the same thing with my second spoo who has recently turned 2. My niece was so upset she actually stopped speaking to me for several months.
It is a personal choice, and it is your choice to make, not anyone else’s. It’s like our religion, our politics and who we voted for president. No one should judge or ridicule you for your own choices.
Best of luck to you and your new puppy!
 

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Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.
I now what you mean, I got the same stuff adopt dpn't shop... Pfff I love my spoos and like you want a healthy and happy pup which leads to a stable fun loving HEALTHY Adult! You go girl!
 

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I have not read through the replies to this thread.

In my opinion, you need to do what is right for your family. There are very few poodles in rescues in my area. The ones that are, have a bite history ( probably due to poor breeding) or are all very senior ( I love older dogs. but it is hard to say good-bye).

I have a friend that is very pro rescue. She has spent over 12K on health issues this year, on one rescue dog ( she has a few). The dog is poorly socialized and has behavior problems due to this. He is not an easy dog to live with. She is not very bonded with the dog.

My Sammy did not come from a great breeder, but not a bad one either. I got very lucky. When making a (hopefully) 20 year commitment, I want the best dog possible.

I applaud the people that give rescue dogs a loving home. For me, it is too expensive and I have young grandchildren that visit regularly. I want to stack my deck of getting the most chance of an even tempered dog.

If backyard breeders, puppy mills and people that aquire a puppy on a whim were stopped, there would be many less adolescent/young adult dogs looking for a home, after they developed problem behaviors.
 

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Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.
A lot of great responses here. What I'm going to add has mostly already been stated; I have a friend who is very opinionated about rescuing. She is committed to her stance and won't consider any other views. She has rescued numerous dogs over the years and is a terrific dog mom. However, my situation is my situation. And I determined (20 years ago when I got my first poodle) that getting a dog from a great breeder, where I could meet the mother if not other relatives, see pictures of the dad, was the right process for me. It worked out; I had Mike, an amazing dog for 16 years. Last summer I decided it was time to dive back in. I researched breeders, went to a couple of dog shows to meet people, found the breeder I wanted to get a dog from in October, and waited for Joey, who was born in March, and I picked up in June. She's a spectacular puppy. Looks like a champion, has that great poodle prance, and most important, has a really terrific disposition. Doesn't mean you can't get the best dog in the world from a rescue, but it gives you a little information about the animal before you commit to a 15 year relationship. So I don't engage in a tug of war about this; I already know it is the right decision for me. And it's a free country mostly. Everyone has the right to do as they please.
 

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Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.
I went thru this recently as well. The adoption application is long and detailed ordeal. A lot of what you describe is accurate. I did go out to one small rescue and found the woman who founded it to be extremely self centered, judgemental and frankly, incapable of correcting behavioral issues. Her only qualification, that I saw, was to be able to house many dogs. She advertised 4 dogs for adoption but actually had more than 20 dogs (serious behavioral issues). They all wear collars that she uses to zap them remotely if they exhibit a bad behavior. They are crated like a dog pound. Her yard smells like poop. She lets them aggressively group play (4 at a time or more) which promotes more dog aggression and she brags how she is approved to rescue dangerous dog breeds. Then,there are rescues who want "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed and won't approve an application for impertinent reasons. Out of 20+ apps, we heard back from about 6. The most straight forward, affordable, wanting to find good homes were the Animal Control Officers, in multi States as well. Detailed apps but not unrealistic hoops to jump through. The largest number of dogs and pups were adopted or in a rescue cross country. Breeders waiting lists are quite long these days as well. Prices have skyrocketed and Vet fees have as well. Still, do your research but don't feel guilty. You're looking for a family member. These "yapper" friends aren't living under your roof or in your shoes. If they don't like your choice. It's their problem. Be happy and safe. Hope you find a perfect pup for you.
 

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I read this piece a while ago and it shook up what I thought things were supposed to be like. I was upset for a couple days.
Detailed Discussion of Dog Auctions and Retail Rescue | Animal Legal & Historical Center
Very eye opening article!
"[Rescuers] are all usually well-intentioned. Their thinking is that any dog taken out of the trade is a worthwhile purchase, but the reality is that paying .... breeders and millers facilitates and grows the practice they are trying to eradicate."

I see no reason to encourage people to not neuter their dogs and allow them to mate indiscriminately. And then often make a profit off of it by selling 'cute' puppies. And I want a dog I can train from the beginning. It is much easier than trying to re-train bad habits out of a dog someone doesn't want and gives up.

...asked " my retired psychologist husband why people try to decide for others where to get a dog. His theory is that it's a way to publicly proclaim their own virtue.

And he says one good response is "It's always interesting to hear your point of view" then move the conversation on. Never justify your decision because that leaves it open to discussion.
Great answer!

" But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" ....
Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.
My first reaction was "Why on earth did you tell them how much you are paying for a dog?" I can just imagine their reaction.

I discovered after owning 3 wonderful dogs that I adopted from others that I had allergies to dogs. I needed to find a dog for a service dog and did not want to take allergy meds for the next 18 or so years. I tried for months finding a good prospect from either 'the pound' or a poodle rescue, and they never had any. They either had problems or were gone before I even saw them. I am so glad they didn't have any that worked as that way I found a great breeder and have an awesome Spoo! If I get another dog I will be doing the same thing again for sure. But I won't be telling family or most friends ahead of time as I know their advice would just be a bother.
 
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