[Tray Mer]

Hi. A breeder says that her dogs are all vet checked, that her females are health tested clear with Embark, and her males are clear using the Pawprint poodle panel, but that she has not done OFA testing... is this enough? It looks like the poodle panel covers all of the major issues? Also, are those results posted publicly anywhere, like on a registry or something? I am new to this! Thanks for your patience

 

[twyla]

You can actually go to ofa.org and look up the recommended testing for each size poodle.
And testing results is publically available there.
Bad knees or hips is painful for the dog and your wallet

 

[Raindrops]

Sounds like a disreputable breeder.

For miniature and standard poodles, hip testing through OFA is very important. X rays must be sent in for analysis. For toy poodles (and miniature poodles) patellar luxation is a big issue and the test for this is performed by a veterinarian and results are then submitted to OFA.

Eye exams are another issue, especially with toy poodles I think.

You can ask about specific tests and see what she says. It is possible for some of these that they have completed the tests but simply don't use OFA (not ideal) but for hips it's definitely necessary.

 

[Mel]

You can check on OFA. A lot of breeders do hip/elbows/patella‘s and don’t submit it. It cost extra per test and if you have a lot of dogs it adds up. Most show breeders it seems have quite a few dogs..most don’t advertise that they have so many. I spoke to a few last weekend at a show and one had a total of 13 , and another 18...another 8 . It’s just mind boggling..I can’t imagine keeping up with that many dogs and having any free time.

I’ve heard different things about hips.. some say extremely important and others dont seem as concerned. Hips are depending on alot of factors such as food, how active a puppy is allowed to be , Luck of the draw and genetics. You can have two excellent rated hips have a pup with HD. I was also searching on OFA yesterday and noticed a breeder bred a moderate HD bitch with a good dog and all the offspring were goods. 🤷🏻‍♀️

 

[Johanna]

The only time I had more that six standard poodles was when I foolishly bred two bitches at the same time - that led to a total of 25 black curly dogs in the yard for a short while! Any poodle used for breeding a litter should have all testing done. Furthermore, it's not all that expensive to submit to OFA, so there is no excuse for not doing it.

My total costs for Zoe's health testing and submissions to OFA (and to AKC for DNA testing) came to about $700. I expect a stud fee of $1200 to $1500. Another big expense will be travel to where the stud dog resides (probably east Texas). While I certainly do not expect to recover everything I will have spent, I do hope to come close to breaking even, assuming there are at least four puppies.

Of course there is always the possibility of disaster - losing all the puppies, only having one puppy, and so on. Breeding dogs responsibly is not for the faint of heart or for people in financial difficulties.

 

[Mel]

Joanna have you used pennhip? I was thinking about going that route with Nova sooner than later and just have everything done then and submit a X-ray to ofa for preliminary . Keeping that dog from running jumping when she was little was like trying to hold the ocean back...it didn’t happen.

It’s just a big worry in the back of my head that I’ve let Nova be too active too early so it might relieve some stress 🤪. It woke me up a couple of times last night.

 

[Vita]

Hi. A breeder says that her dogs are all vet checked, that her females are health tested clear with Embark, and her males are clear using the Pawprint poodle panel, but that she has not done OFA testing... is this enough? It looks like the poodle panel covers all of the major issues? Also, are those results posted publicly anywhere, like on a registry or something? I am new to this! Thanks for your patience

Allow me to get clarification and do some clarifying. Are these toy, mini, or standard poodles?

If they are toys, the parents do not need hip x-rays to rule out weak hips. However, they, along with minipoos, need a vet to check out their knees for patellar luxation. The earliest this can be done is 1 year old. Standards don't need their knees checked per the OFA, but they have other recommendations not given for the smaller size. As for these, other, and DNA testing, this link will take you to the OFA site for the bare bottom recommendations: What Genetic diseases and/or conditions should my breed be screened for?

You said this breeder uses Embark for her females and her Paw Prints for her males. The owner will have an online account for each dog, with the results which they can make public. Ask her for those links for the sire & dam of the litter.

For Embark, the link will look something like this: Embark with us! or call name of dog). For Paw Prints, the link will be something like this: https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/pedigrees/dogs/details/(ID# of dog)/

Pay close attention to any genetic tests that are omitted. The reason is if a specific test came back unfavorably, e.g. the dog is a carrier or affected with one or two bad genes for a disease, then the owner can hide that result from public view. Don't settle for paperwork copies, these are less reliable from a breeder when the info is online at the DNA site, as a few have been known to falsify documents.

My thoughts about breeders using OFA depart slightly from others. It is valuable for OFA to assess and/or record applicable conditions like:

• hip xrays,
• heart,
• thyroid,
• Sebaceous Adenitis (SA),
• patellar luxation (knees),
• eye exam by a board certifies ACVO ophthalmologist ***

If the DNA test results, however, are online at the lab site used, paying for those results to be recorded on OFA too, while nice, is duplicative and unnecessary.

*** This is necessary for a dog to receive the highest level of endorsement by OFA if all the other requirements have been done, and it gets a CHIC label. The cost for a vet ophthalmologist exam is very, very expensive unless there is an affordable OFA-endorsed health clinic in their area, and some states don't have these clinics visiting often or at all. Here's the best list of calendar dates with locations I've seen so far. OFA has their own calendar which is not nearly as thorough, here.

While the saliva swab DNA test will rule out PRA-PRCD eye disease, a vet eye doctor will do a physical exam that can't be found in a DNA test to assess things like cataracts, glaucoma, and optic nerve issues, as described here and here.

In a perfect world, I'd want to see those results posted on OFA too. In the real world, however, I haven't seen too many breeders, even the ones with show ribbons galore, who test for everything.

 

[Rose n Poos]

If the DNA test results, however, are online at the lab site used, paying for those results to be recorded on OFA too, while nice, is duplicative and unnecessary.

Elaborating on this a bit. Vita is totally correct that the results are the results, whether they're found on OFA or on the testing lab site.

A couple of things make the additional posting on OFA a value add to me.

One is that once the fee is paid by the breeder, the normal results are open to anyone to view (abnormal results must be okayed by the owner/breeder before posting). All the person looking needs to have is a registry name or number, or just the kennel name (thanks Johanna for that tip).

Another is the things they're doing with the data.
They're funding research, creating databases and a DNA repository

https://www.ofa.org/about

https://www.ofa.org/about/funded-research

https://www.ofa.org/about/dna-repository

They've established a recommended protocol for breed-specific health screenings in partnership with parent breed clubs

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

OFA's Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) provides information on health issues prevalent in specific breeds. Learn more about the CHIC program.

www.ofa.org

I hadn't even noticed til poking around that they are a non-profit organization.
"Using OFA in Your Practice"

Using OFA in Your Practice - Tufts Breeding & Genetics 2015 - VIN

www.vin.com

 

[Vita]

Elaborating on this a bit. Vita is totally correct that the results are the results, whether they're found on OFA or on the testing lab site. ... A couple of things make the additional posting on OFA a value... the things they're doing with the data. They're funding research, creating databases and a DNA repository...

Ah yes! (headsmack) So true. Their database is marvelous for serious researchers and casual observers.

 

[Johanna]

Joanna have you used pennhip? I was thinking about going that route with Nova sooner than later and just have everything done then and submit a X-ray to ofa for preliminary . Keeping that dog from running jumping when she was little was like trying to hold the ocean back...it didn’t happen.

It’s just a big worry in the back of my head that I’ve let Nova be too active too early so it might relieve some stress 🤪. It woke me up a couple of times last night.

No, I have never used pennhip. It did not exist when I was breeding standard poodles. Also, I have never tried to prevent running and jumping. It's my opinion that bad hips are genetic and not caused by activity. My mini poo, Zoe, is wildly active and has jumped from the back of the sofa to the wood floor ever since she was a puppy. I wish she would not do it, but there is no good way to prevent it. Her OFA certificate rates her hips as "good".

I have never done preliminary hip x-rays because I have never bred a dog who was under two years of age and had a final evaluation of "good" or "excellent".

I don't know about Pennhip, but one nice thing about OFA is that you can research the dogs in the pedigree and see how they and their siblings were rated. Same goes for eye exams.

 

[Rose n Poos]

Pennhip vs OFA is well above my paygrade but I'd wondered myself after doing so much looking thru OFA lately.
The medical/science community seems to lean to Pennhip for quantifiable results. The OFA single view is done as part of the three view Pennhip.

Looking for confirmation but it seems that Pennhip results may be published in the OFA database for a small fee, OFA publishes their own for no charge.

I also found one reference to the AKC not accepting Pennhip results as of 2010 but not sure if still true. Please correct me if you have info while I'm still looking into that.
Update: PCA, parent breed club is ok with both

Health Concerns - The Poodle Club of America

On this page...Addison’s DiseaseAtrial Septal Defects in Standard PoodlesBloatChronic Active HepatitisCushings DiseaseEpilepsyHip DysplasiaHypothyroidismLegg-Calve-PerthesNeonatal Encephalopathy (NEwS)Patellar LuxationProgressive Retinal AtrophyOptic Nerve HypoplasiaSebaceous AdenitisVaccination...

poodleclubofamerica.org

Buncha links below

Hip Dysplasia - PennHIP and OFA Radiographs - Best Friends Animal Hospital
neutral commentary with xray views, pros/cons list
http://www.wilsonvilleveterinaryclinic.com/documents/PennHIPvsOFA.pdf
they suggest doing both
Evaluation of the Relationship Between Orthopedic Foundation for Animals' Hip Joint Scores and PennHIP Distraction Index Values in Dogs - PubMed
nod to Pennhip with data
Canine Hip Dysplasia Screening Within the United States: Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program and Orthopedic Foundation for Animals Hip/Elbow Database - PubMed
nod to Pennhip but OFA has it's place
Study compares PennHIP vs OFA hip dysplasia tests
fairly neutral with data and graphs
JAVMA on OFA vs Pennhip
nod to Pennhip with data repeated from 20807130
OFA Hip vs PENN Hip
PF members discuss

 

[Tray Mer]

Allow me to get clarification and do some clarifying. Are these toy, mini, or standard poodles?

If they are toys, the parents do not need hip x-rays to rule out weak hips. However, they, along with minipoos, need a vet to check out their knees for patellar luxation. The earliest this can be done is 1 year old. Standards don't need their knees checked per the OFA, but they have other recommendations not given for the smaller size. As for these, other, and DNA testing, this link will take you to the OFA site for the bare bottom recommendations: What Genetic diseases and/or conditions should my breed be screened for?

You said this breeder uses Embark for her females and her Paw Prints for her males. The owner will have an online account for each dog, with the results which they can make public. Ask her for those links for the sire & dam of the litter.

For Embark, the link will look something like this: Embark with us! or call name of dog). For Paw Prints, the link will be something like this: https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/pedigrees/dogs/details/(ID# of dog)/

Pay close attention to any genetic tests that are omitted. The reason is if a specific test came back unfavorably, e.g. the dog is a carrier or affected with one or two bad genes for a disease, then the owner can hide that result from public view. Don't settle for paperwork copies, these are less reliable from a breeder when the info is online at the DNA site, as a few have been known to falsify documents.

My thoughts about breeders using OFA depart slightly from others. It is valuable for OFA to assess and/or record applicable conditions like:

• hip xrays,
• heart,
• thyroid,
• Sebaceous Adenitis (SA),
• patellar luxation (knees),
• eye exam by a board certifies ACVO ophthalmologist ***

If the DNA test results, however, are online at the lab site used, paying for those results to be recorded on OFA too, while nice, is duplicative and unnecessary.

*** This is necessary for a dog to receive the highest level of endorsement by OFA if all the other requirements have been done, and it gets a CHIC label. The cost for a vet ophthalmologist exam is very, very expensive unless there is an affordable OFA-endorsed health clinic in their area, and some states don't have these clinics visiting often or at all. Here's the best list of calendar dates with locations I've seen so far. OFA has their own calendar which is not nearly as thorough, here.

While the saliva swab DNA test will rule out PRA-PRCD eye disease, a vet eye doctor will do a physical exam that can't be found in a DNA test to assess things like cataracts, glaucoma, and optic nerve issues, as described here and here.

In a perfect world, I'd want to see those results posted on OFA too. In the real world, however, I haven't seen too many breeders, even the ones with show ribbons galore, who test for everything.

I am looking at minis. Thank you for this thoughtful reply!

 

[Tray Mer]

Thank you for your help. I have decided not to continue with this breeder. Your knowledge is appreciated!

 

[Rose n Poos]

Your poodle (and breeder) is out there!

 

[Tray Mer]

Your poodle (and breeder) is out there!

Thank you 😊 After doing more research, I found three potential breeders in my area. I actually just posted a question under "breeding" asking for feedback about any of them. We are in no rush, and want to wait for the right pup from the right breeder!