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They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.

I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.

Instead, what they said to me via email is:

"We don't do a lot of testing. We have in the past, generations ago. But we have been breeding Standards now for 25+ years. We spent our resources ensuring that we brought in lines from around the world where there were no health issues. The issues all came from the inbreeding in the US in the past 40 years. Any testing that has been done will be listed on the Pedigrees along with the COI percentage."

How acceptable is this? Just looking for feedback. This would be our first Poodle, but we've had other dogs before.

One other question as an aside, we love the look of Parti Poodles and Reds/Apricots, but have been warned by other breeders that health testing is an absolute prerequisite with these types because of historical inbreeding issues.
 

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As far as I am concerned this is a complete cop out on their part. I do not think there is anywhere in the world with no health issues. Top American and European lines are shared all the time by the best breeders to improve gene pools, but disreputable breeders will often import dogs from Europe simply because top quality breeders in America will not allow them to have breeding rights because they have much higher standards. A responsible breeder still always tests to ensure they are doing their best to avoid potential health issues. The simple reason they do not test is that they know they can get by without it. They are a business, plain and simple. They will not put more effort into producing good puppies than they need to in order to find buyers willing to pay their prices. A responsible breeder health tests not because their buyers demand it, but because they themselves want to breed the best dogs they can. It's an ethical issue. I prefer breeders that are not breeding for profit, but who breed dogs for a purpose and title at least some of their dogs to demonstrate their worthiness to pass on genes. Breeders that breed for business don't do these things, and it makes you wonder what other corners they're cutting with your puppy. The Poodle Club of America will not recommend any breeders that aren't following OFA recommended health testing.
 

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Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting- the demand is so high, they don't need to do the health testing to get people to buy. Especially with the Parti/Red/Phantom colors.

All that said, they still have really good reviews. 4.8/5 on Google. Lots of people do love the dogs they got from there.

Do you think that Partis/Reds/Phantoms are generally 'riskier' dogs to get, even with a health test, because they're a newer fad and promoted by lower-integrity breeders?
 

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Partis have a rich history:

470081



But since they cannot currently be shown in AKC events, you're likely to have a tougher time finding parti breeders who are working to improve their lines.

I recently did an Embark DNA test on Peggy and have been horrified by how many of her close relatives came from questionable beginnings. It's very sad.
 

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Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting- the demand is so high, they don't need to do the health testing to get people to buy. Especially with the Parti/Red/Phantom colors.

All that said, they still have really good reviews. 4.8/5 on Google. Lots of people do love the dogs they got from there.

Do you think that Partis/Reds/Phantoms are generally 'riskier' dogs to get, even with a health test, because they're a newer fad and promoted by lower-integrity breeders?
In general, I would say yes those colors are very popular with disreputable breeders because they are trendy and the demand is so high. But there are genuinely good breeders producing all of them. You may just end up waiting longer.

In regard to reviews, I do not trust reviews from the general public. I prefer reviews from experienced dog people. Most people write a review right after they get their puppy, not years later when they can accurately describe their dog's temperament and health issues. So my expectation is that you would get mostly positive reviews. In Miami we have a lot of puppy stores selling puppy mill puppies or worse... imported mill puppies. I checked their Google reviews. Almost all are above 4 and a few I see are 4.7 and 4.8. So I think this supports my feelings. In reality these stores are horrors to educated dog people.
 

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Partis have a rich history:

View attachment 470081


But since they cannot currently be shown in AKC events, you're likely to have a tougher time finding parti breeders who are working to improve their lines.

I recently did an Embark DNA test on Peggy and have been horrified by how many of her close relatives came from questionable beginnings. It's very sad.
That's interesting- didn't realize that the Partis had such a rich history. Also the point about AKC events- hadn't thought of that.

So it sounds like with your dog, the DNA test unearthed some issues. Did you get a clean health test on your dog when they were a puppy prior to purchase?
 

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Just a fyi, breeders generally don't health test the puppies themselves, they generally have numerous health tests done on the dog's parents months in advance.

Also, I wouldn't purchase dogs from family affairs since they have no health tests or health guarantee. I also find it disgusting that they have a lot of special needs puppies (30+ as I'm writing this) and sell them for "discounted prices" when they should instead be placed in good rescue homes IMHO. Also the fact that they have so many special needs dogs shows that their reasoning for not health testing is a complete sham.
 

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That's interesting- didn't realize that the Partis had such a rich history. Also the point about AKC events- hadn't thought of that.

So it sounds like with your dog, the DNA test unearthed some issues. Did you get a clean health test on your dog when they were a puppy prior to purchase?
Her dam and sire were health tested, and she got a clean bill of genetic health from Embark. But I got lucky in a lot of ways. I didn't really know what to look for in a breeder. I've learned a lot since joining Poodle Forum!
 

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Hi and Welcome!

Not knowing your experience looking for what I call conscientious breeders, I'm dropping a link to some resources in the Breeder Directory forum.


Review the health information in the top portion and then you'll find some breeder recommendations. If you look thru those, don't skip the Poodle Clubs (there are many more than are listed) and the multi state listings.

I want to emphasize that it's the breeding parents who get health tested. Puppies get a onceover check by a vet. Any guarantee on the puppies health doesn't have much to back it up without the parents having been tested. I see contracts/guarantees/warranties that exclude conditions that the sire and dam could have been tested for. I see contracts that offer 2 year replacement (could you send a dog back after 2 years?) although some of the serious issues won't come up til later than that. All dogs, purebred and mixed have the potential for heritable health issues.

I'm also going to add my personal criteria for choosing a breeder, just to give some ideas for you.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these criteria are important in choosing a conscientious breeder and to get a wellbred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.
 

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They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.

I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.

Instead, what they said to me via email is:

"We don't do a lot of testing. We have in the past, generations ago. But we have been breeding Standards now for 25+ years. We spent our resources ensuring that we brought in lines from around the world where there were no health issues. The issues all came from the inbreeding in the US in the past 40 years. Any testing that has been done will be listed on the Pedigrees along with the COI percentage."

How acceptable is this? Just looking for feedback. This would be our first Poodle, but we've had other dogs before.

One other question as an aside, we love the look of Parti Poodles and Reds/Apricots, but have been warned by other breeders that health testing is an absolute prerequisite with these types because of historical inbreeding issues.
 

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he issues all came from the inbreeding in the US in the past 40 years
What I think they're referring to is known as the Midcentury Bottleneck, actually well over 40 years ago. The Midcentury Bottleneck is actually three bottlenecks. Rather than trust my memory for specifics, I'll drop more links. There's a lot of information out there. If you get interested, just search for Midcentury Bottleneck.

 
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we love the look of Parti Poodles and Reds/Apricots, but have been warned by other breeders that health testing is an absolute prerequisite with these types because of historical inbreeding issues.
I've never heard that before and have actually not looked into whether parti poodles truly have more or different health issues, so now I know what I'll be doing soon :).

As I understand things right now, parti color is a genetic coat color difference only. Genetics of course can be tricky but I'm inclined to doubt that they're more inbred that solid color poodles. If you look into the MCB info, you'll find that standard poodles worldwide have lost much genetic diversity due to the MCB, and the interrelatedness is why COI is also looked at. Parti color is not new, it's just been dismissed by the AKC and some other registry entities. The UKC (United Kennel Club in the US) welcomes parti poodles as part of their registry.

I'd also question the source, possibly motive, of why other breeders (presumably breed-standard-correct) would say that.

I found a link to an old thread here at PF which included at least 2 members who are respected breeders. I haven't read all the way thru yet:
 
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I wouldn’t buy a poodle from a Breeder that doesn’t do testing or offer a health guarantee. I’ve bought eight poodles (mini and standard) from the same breeder in Vegas for the last 19 years. I’ve lost three over the years and the eldest of my five now is 13.75. These are the best dogs I have ever had and my breeder still has the tests on each of them. When my eldest had an issue in January 2019, my vet asked if certain tests were done. My breeder quickly pulled the tests for my then 12-year old boy, and immediately sent them over. You are going to love this pup for years. He/she will be family. Don’t cut corners.
 

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Lots of people do love the dogs they got from there.
It's absolutely possible to get a wonderful dog, a dog that the family loves, from anywhere. Loving a dog doesn't mean that the reviewer is informed about the breed and potential issues, or what to look for in a breeder. It's not until (if) problems come up that they may learn. I wish that for no one.

With my first three poodles, 1963, 1970, 1983, I was not an informed buyer, never thought about needing to be informed and I loved every one of them with my whole heart. They are all still sorely missed.

In 2002, with the internet now available, I was becoming informed. In 2017 I was far more informed but due to forces beyond my control (ahem, DH) we have basically BYB puppies. I wasn't happy but being well informed, I felt we'd manage taking on the unknown, we could afford financially to manage problems, and I knew not to count on the breeder for any kind of support.

If you land on PF, we're going to offer what we've learned. Going back to the quality of the breeder and the poodles they send on to new families, it's not only the individual poodles and the individual families, it's about the health and future of the whole poodle breed.
 

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@Beuzkhof

Try One Fine Cut on FB, and located in Gray, TN. I first learned about them from this PF thread two months ago and was so impressed I bookmarked the link and encourage you to read it.

They have beautiful, well-bred Parti and solid color poodles that are DNA tested and shown. I don't know if they have any pups left from their most recent litter, but it looks like they are expecting a new litter very soon. The breeders, Ray & Kristy Jones, are members of United Poodle Association (the UPC).

"The UPC serves as the pending national association, representing UKC Poodle fanciers across the United States and Canada and was formed in 2017. It was merger of the Multi-Colored Poodle Club of America (MCPCA) and the United Poodle Breeders Association (UPBA) and carries on traditions from both organizations. The MCPCA led a movement educating about multi-colored poodles and advocating for their place in the breed ring, which began in UKC in 2005." (link)

Check out their member page for other breeders of Parti poodles if One Fine Cut already has deposits on their upcoming litter.
 

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If you're looking around NC, I would start by contacting Gloria at Tintlet. She was a beloved member here and one of the few high quality parti breeders around. She has shifted her focus to minis, and her daughter has taken over more of the business, but she's an excellent resource. She can point you towards upcoming litters from quality breeders.
 

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I would also look into Shyre in Ohio, Heartsong in Alabama, and Karbit in Texas. Parti breeders are more difficult to find than solid breeders. Parti poodles can't be shown in AKC conformation, and many people just don't find UKC as satisfying.
 

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Windswept would be high on my list if I wanted a parti, though they also have solids as well. I think they're in Colorado.
 
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