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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys,
some of you may know me from the other thread where I happily decided to go for a toy poodle (vs a designer breed).
I have been talking to soooo many breeders and there's two breeders I am considering now but I have a few questions about both. Any input welcome!

1. Breeder #1 - not KC assured but seem like they put a lot of effort into their pups. I have been chatting to them for a couple months now. They seem really lovely and just had two litters of so many lovely pups in so many different colours (there's a black phantom, a brown phantom, partis, blacks, apricot). Firstly, since they have all these "non recognised" colours such as partis and phantoms - is that an issue? Those colours are so lovely but I don't know if it suspicious. Secondly, some of their dogs are really small, 7-8 inches, and they call them tiny toys :( they do NOT advertise tiny toys, nor do they breed specifically to have small puppies (one of the mother is 10 inches and just standard), but they say something along the lines of "this mother is so small, she is what would be considered a tiny toy". They said they bought her from a KC assured breeder who didn't want her. She also had to have a C section now so they won't breed from her anymore. For the record I just saw all the dogs on video call, they all look really healthy and happy, well fed and groomed, I saw the mothers with babies, and everything else. Finally, they do charge high prices, 3000 - 3500 GBP, which is in line with the absolute craziness that is going on in the UK regarding poodle (and doodle) pricing. They said they had to purchase some of their dogs at these prices so they need to charge that.

2. Breeder #2 - KC assured breeder, have been breeding for decades. I called them a few months ago and they were saying how they are so strict about who they give their pups to etc. Didn't think they'd part with them easily. Almost thought it was a waste of time to call them again but I called them again just now and they have 2 puppies! They also charge a much more reasonable price. It seemed almost too good to be true.They said they don't keep waiting lists and whoever calls and who they like they would give one to. I am happy to say they are fine to give me one of their puppies, I just have a question about colour. They say they breed reds, but isn't this little one more apricot? Would he go a lot lighter? I know it's hard to tell. I always wanted that deep dark red but now I am thinking I am fine with lighter shades because he is so adorable!
 

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I don't necessarily see major red flags but I'm also not terribly familiar with UK practices. By KC assured do you mean KC registered? I would for sure prefer a KC registered puppy over an unregistered one.

What info do you have on health testing of the parents and are either of these breeders active in showing their dogs in conformation or performance?

I would say that is a light red puppy. I like the sound of the selectivity of the second breeder. Sounds like they aren't breeding with profit in mind.
 

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Yeah, id go for #2. My SPOO furbaby's momma was white, and her Dad was red. The litter had varying apricot to reds. Color is a non issue for me. You learn to love it no matter what.

#1 sounds too sketchy.
 

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2. Breeder #2 - ...It seemed almost too good to be true. They said they don't keep waiting lists and whoever calls and who they like they would give one to. I am happy to say they are fine to give me one of their puppies
Regarding the above "It seemed almost too good to be true".

I started out as a nobody on my breeders list, graduated to top 20, then #15, then #10. Ultimately there were (12) puppies in (2) litters, and I got one. This all transpired via brief email communications over the course of 2 months.
Recently during one of my puppy visits, I asked her how in the world did I ever make it to the front of the list? After all, I had only inquired a couple of months ago (December 2020). She said "I liked your story" and (paraphrase) I liked what you had to say, and the way you said it. They're my puppies, and I can match them to whoever I choose to.
So the point is, make sure you tell your breeder how excited you are to have the opportunity to receive one of their puppies!! I know it was key for me!
 

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KC assured
is a "level" of breeder, something like AKC Breeder of Merit or Bred with Heart. They're required to meet certain standards to carry the title.
The Kennel Club is the only organisation accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) to certify dog breeders under our Assured Breeders scheme. This means we are recognised as an impartial and competent inspector by the government's sole national accreditation body.

Priority health schemes and tests

The Kennel Club Assured Breeders must use the following (or equivalent) schemes, tests and advice. All other breeders are strongly advised to also use these.
There's more info on the site
 

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In addition to and beyond, I'd look at any contracts and "guarantee/warranty" both might offer. It's almost impossible not to love a puppy (most of the time :)) but I'd want to really connect comfortably with the breeder and know that they'll stand behind their pups, and by association, me, thru my pups life.

Almost forgot, red is considered a fading color so the pup is likely to lighten, but not necessarily dramatically. In fact, most poodle colors are likely to change to some degree thru their life.

My girls at almost 2 years old
475293


and at almost 16y
475294



Remo at almost 9 wks
475295


and at 1 yr old
475296
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I don't necessarily see major red flags but I'm also not terribly familiar with UK practices. By KC assured do you mean KC registered? I would for sure prefer a KC registered puppy over an unregistered one.

What info do you have on health testing of the parents and are either of these breeders active in showing their dogs in conformation or performance?

I would say that is a light red puppy. I like the sound of the selectivity of the second breeder. Sounds like they aren't breeding with profit in mind.
Yeah, KC registered. There's KC registered which means both of the pups' parents are KC registered. Then there is KC assured, which means not only the pups' parents are registered but you are also assured by the Kennel Club as a breeder, meaning you can only have a certain amount of litters a year, and there's extra checks the Kennel Club does to make sure you are good.
The first breeder isn't KC assured, but one of their litters pups are KC registered. The other litter isn't KC registered as the bitch was (accidentally) mated a little before she reached a year of age, and KC doesn't allow you to register a litter if the mom is under a year. Another thing, the first breeder is just mated one of their poodles to a cavalier :( He said she wouldn't do it with a poodle so they did it with a cavalier but I somehow find it hard to believe.... :( SOunds like it was intentional. They do sound really nice and showed me all the dogs. They don't show their dogs and find the whole show thing quite cliquey.

The second breeder only breeds red and chocolate poodles, they do breed a lot (as in have a lot of dogs, 9 or so), but they do it within KC assured breeder rules, which I think is 1 or 2 litters max a year per bitch. I think it's 1 actually.
 

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I would happily go with the second breeder, the KC Assured one. She is doing everything right and that has a big impact on what is “under the hood” and hard to see when still a puppy- but makes a huge difference over the life of the dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I don't necessarily see major red flags but I'm also not terribly familiar with UK practices. By KC assured do you mean KC registered? I would for sure prefer a KC registered puppy over an unregistered one.

What info do you have on health testing of the parents and are either of these breeders active in showing their dogs in conformation or performance?

I would say that is a light red puppy. I like the sound of the selectivity of the second breeder. Sounds like they aren't breeding with profit in mind.
Sorry forgot to address the other questions.

The first breeder don't show their dogs and they don't want to get involved in all of that, they think it's a "mean and cliquey" environment. But a lot of the dogs they use for breeding are champions and they seem to really go out of their way to get the best studs/bitches (who all live with them).

So second breeder tests all of this: PRA-PRCD Clear (A) to PRA-PRCD Clear (A) ,PRA-LOPRA,Degenerative Myelopathy,Neonatal Encephalopathy,and Von Willebrands type 1 = all clear. They don't test for luxating patellas here for some reason. The second breeder don't show themselves but their dogs are shown often. There are two puppies, one has a tiny white marking on the chest, so she told me if I wanted to show (I don't), i'd need to take them one without the tiny white marking.

Thank you so much for your help!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I would happily go with the second breeder, the KC Assured one. She is doing everything right and that has a big impact on what is “under the hood” and hard to see when still a puppy- but makes a huge difference over the life of the dog.
Thank you, I agree with you! And the fact quite a few of her dogs end up in the showring with their new owners is a good thing, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
In addition to and beyond, I'd look at any contracts and "guarantee/warranty" both might offer. It's almost impossible not to love a puppy (most of the time :)) but I'd want to really connect comfortably with the breeder and know that they'll stand behind their pups, and by association, me, thru my pups life.

Almost forgot, red is considered a fading color so the pup is likely to lighten, but not necessarily dramatically. In fact, most poodle colors are likely to change to some degree thru their life.

My girls at almost 2 years old
View attachment 475293

and at almost 16y
View attachment 475294


Remo at almost 9 wks
View attachment 475295

and at 1 yr old
View attachment 475296
Aw she is so beautiful! Thanks for sharing. I am no longer so obsessed with the dark red, I think all of the red shades are beautiful. I used to really not like light apricot/cream/white and now I love those. I am actually going off the dark deep red because they are all over Instagram.....
Very good suggestion. She has a contract after you pay a deposit which says you are getting puppy X, and then a contract when you get the pup saying the pup will be endorsed and you cannoy breed from him (vs the first breeder doesn't mind - you can use their pups for breeding). This one suggests neutering/spaying and you cannot breed from them. And she also claims to always be there to help and has a lot of amazing reviews on her page but I will also see if there's anything else regarding her helping me in the contract.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Yeah, id go for #2. My SPOO furbaby's momma was white, and her Dad was red. The litter had varying apricot to reds. Color is a non issue for me. You learn to love it no matter what.

#1 sounds too sketchy.
Thank you! The number 1 also just mated their poodle with a cavalier :( seems like a red flag as well.
I agree, I am now even liking the cream shades. I am becoming totally poodle obsessed.
 

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Regarding the above "It seemed almost too good to be true".

I started out as a nobody on my breeders list, graduated to top 20, then #15, then #10. Ultimately there were (12) puppies in (2) litters, and I got one. This all transpired via brief email communications over the course of 2 months.
Recently during one of my puppy visits, I asked her how in the world did I ever make it to the front of the list? After all, I had only inquired a couple of months ago (December 2020). She said "I liked your story" and (paraphrase) I liked what you had to say, and the way you said it. They're my puppies, and I can match them to whoever I choose to.
So the point is, make sure you tell your breeder how excited you are to have the opportunity to receive one of their puppies!! I know it was key for me!
Thank you! Yeah, I think that's why I lucked out as well. She doesn't keep waiting lists and on the first call even told me some people ask their friends to call her to get one of her puppies if she turns them down lol. But I happened to call back now at the right time.
 
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