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Discussion Starter #1
I am starting this thread for everyone to do a little venting and learning about poodles and their image.

Ok I do have a beef and that is with some little known history that is looked over by Kennel orgs. Many years ago while doing research on harliquin poodle I came across at that time a not well known fact. That fact is that parti and harliquins were the first poodle colors. The solids were bred off of them and then the parti came out of fashion. The FCI only allows solids to be shown so all the other kennels orgs like AKc and CKC adopted that rule. But in their home country German that is not the case as these are more well known there. So all you people that have all those no solid colors more power to you. BTW parti and harliquins are not the same as harliquin have a specific color pattern the must follow part of it tip of tail must be white then black and the face must have the mask, I think the face is right. This pattern is not well known in the US so you should look up German sites on it.

Ok second vent. Why in the world did the AKC put the standard in the NON sporting group. This makes no sense whats so ever as this is a well known retiever in its country. Now having the toy in the toy group makes sense and the mini in the non sporting group (even though I have seen some working) but the standard should be in the retireving group. Here where I live there are some owners that have poodles doing this work for duck hunting and passing tests. I know you all will agree with me on this but why has the poodle club done nothing to change that status. It would only help the breed image. This is comming from someone who also used to look down on poodles as foofoo dogs. That was till I learn there real history and saw them in action.

So lets hear your vent and discoveries since you have had your poodle or while looking for one.
 

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Someone please correct me if im wrong, but i believe the poodle org. have not tried to get them moved out of the nonsporting group as the poodle would probably not have as high a chance of winning. More spoos get put up from the non-sporting group then i believe any other breed. If they were in the sporting group then i dont think judges would pick them as often. Just look at the am. staff in the terrier group. I have never seen one take group in a major show.

There arnt any vents i can think of at this time. This isnt really a vent (and im sure a LOT of people will disagree with me), but i am a fan of keeping a poodle a docked breed. I am a fan of keeping docking/cropping legal. Yes, im a horrible person.

Just wait and i may find more vents.
 

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I'm in agreement with Bigpoodleperson, and I want the Poodle to remain a docked breed. *Prepares to be flamed* Likewise, I am for ear cropping, and if I ever own a breed that has cropped ears I would crop them. Those are my personal beliefs and I like the docked/cropped look. If done at the proper age I don't think it's inhumane. Cue angry mob :D

My vent is the stigma surrounding poodles. Most view them as silly, stuck up dogs that need to be spoiled and pampered. Frou frou dogs that should never be owned by a man and love pink. I really hate that stereotype! They are intelligent and functional, originally bred as water retrievers. What's fabulous about that?

End vent/rant.
 

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When my family found out I was getting standards, they pretty much frowned upon the idea, but two years later after I've shown them all the beautiful dogs and the limitless intelligence of them, I think they support the idea now. I still don't have my dogs, and I probably wont for awhile still, but I know that once I do they'll instantly fall in love with them.

"Why in the world did the AKC put the standard in the NON sporting group."

While I agree that it's dumb that they aren't looked upon as a sporting dog anymore, I see what BPP is coming from by saying that they have a better chance in the non-sporting group as far as showing goes. The AKC has it's own stupid faults, like how the GSD has the swoop in the back, I've heard from foreign breeders that that's actually harmful in the dog in the long run and that's not bred in them in other countries or desired in working dogs.

I myself am a hunter, and I'm going to train my dogs to be retrievers. Having a retriever will ensure less game is wasted since we can't always find the bird if it happens to fall in 5 feet of super thick bush, we only have our eyes, not noses. Plus, the dogs will love the job, and if they don't desire to do it, which I'm sure someone will, I'll find a job more suiting for them.

I thought about saying my rant could be the image that the general public see's on them, but then I thought, why the **** do I care? It's a breed that I love, if someone else doesn't like my dogs breed, that's not my problem.. as long as they're not trying to abuse or poison my dog I'll sleep just as peacefully listening to doggy snores.
 

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BTW parti and harliquins are not the same as harliquin have a specific color pattern the must follow part of it tip of tail must be white then black and the face must have the mask, I think the face is right. This pattern is not well known in the US so you should look up German sites on it.
Harilquin and Parti are terms to describe a dog marked with white. All non solid colored poodles are concidered Multi Colored and registered/shown as such in the UKC. There is a preffered patteren for bi-color Poodles, with minamul markings/no ticking and a solid head and tail.

Poodles are in the Non-Sporting group because when the AKC first started they had two groups: Sporting and Non-Sporting. By this time the majorty of Poodles were used as circus/trick dogs/companions and not hunting dogs.

Anyway my small vent is the nickname people seam inclined to use for a Standard Poodle...Spoo *cringes* its irritating to read and asinine to hear spoken. I dislike any nickname for any breed so this one really gets to me.

Also why do people feel the need to buy over/under sized Poodles? When I tell people my Toy weights 10 pounds they don't believe it, I get "thats huge for a Toy dog!" I thoughtToys should be 2 pounds or less!" then you have the dumbass who don't believe that my Standard is a real Poodle. I had my girl spayed and everyone kept asking "Are you sure she's a Poodle?" "I did not known they came that big!?" BTW she weights 65 pounds and is 26" tall.

Yeah...:)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ok I admit to the short written verison on standard poodles. When I first started seeing it I was like what is that and I thought of spooks. Anyway, I promise to be better.

I think the whole wrong catagory for poodle comes from the FCI. They are the world dog org that all other country kennel orgs take their lead from on stuff like that. I just think it does the breed a big diservice.

Stuff like docking was done for as reason for each breed. With poodles I think for water work it was important as a full tail with hair would have effected them. Most duck lake are heavy with plants in and out of water. Long hair tails would cause problems for a dog and good be serious if dog got snaged and could not get free. Maybe instead of this out lawing that is going around like in EU making it a choice.

With how things are today docking and croping should not hurt if done under meds and done right. Some breeds look better not docked or cropped but not poodles. I do not like a full tail on them at all.

Ok here is a new one and being a pro groomer it gets me. That is grooming poodle is hard and takes hours. Fact is most owners can take care of most of their maintance. Since keeping them brushed is regular maintance on any breed and the more done the better the dog looks. Brushing just once a week would help so much. BUT since most owners think that since it is a poodle only pro groomers can do them. Pet peeve I have to teach many owners it is not hard to do maintance so they can some of those nicer cuts. Funny thing after they learn that is all it takes to do those fancier cuts they are all for it. I think owners are as tried of the kennel/sporting clip as the rest of us.
 

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I don't have anything to verify this, but I was told that when the AKC recently restructured their groups, they gave the PCA the option to switch the Standard to the sporting group. The Poodle Club choose not to, so your beef would be w/ them not AKC. Same goes for any issue w/ the standard, like patterned dogs not being allowed in the show ring.

I too am a one of those "cruel" people who supports cropping/docking. IMO, it's a minor issue and people should focus on BSL, dog fighting and puppymills. I do think that cropping should only be done by a skilled vet and it's shameful that the practice isn't taught as much. That IMO, is why so many people have cropping done at home or by a vet who doesn't know what they are doing. Not excusing the behavior at all, though. Anyone who doesn't have a vet do it, should be cropped themselves, in the same manner.
 

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Well, I too have always wondered why AKC and other dog groups put the Standard Poodle into the Non-Sporting instead of the Sporting group. *shrug*. I realize that there is always politics with everything and someone, somewhere, sometime, thought it best to put them this way, although I think it is strange for sure. I wouldn't mind seeing them put into their proper category but it is not a major issue to me. They exist, they are GREAT and that is what I care about. :)

As far as color goes, that is more important to me than putting the poodle into the sporting group. I really wish they would allow all colors to be shown in AKC. Seeing as all colors came with the original poodle, why are they not???? To me, that would give more gene pool to work with when breeding for show quality dogs. If the poodle is proper type, proper build, proper temperament, proper coat, no serious faults, health tested, then color should be the last concern if you are wanting to keep the breed proper and healthy. But, that is just my opinion. We are sticking to the traditional colors... i.e. black, blue, silver, apricot with no white as we intend to show in AKC and this is what is most acceptable. BUT, I do plan on getting a phantom in the future, I love them and if I find one later on that meets my standard of form and temperament, I will own one eventually. :)

LOL.. ok, I am going to be nasty and actually write the dreaded word... spoo...lol. Sorry. Actually, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. Just another one of the quick shortcut words to write. When I am speaking about our Poodles though, I always use the words Standard Poodle, would never use the shortcut word as to me the full name is proper. But, in writing on forums, I find the quick shortcut easy. Oh, well. lol.

I too am ok with cropping/docking. I have had doberman's for years and have had pups cropped/docked and have to say, done properly it is not as horrible as a lot of people think. Docking the tails and taking off the dew claws at 3 days old is quick and, yes, the pup cries, but mostly it starts screaming from being held tight and not liking it. I am not saying that it doesn't hurt them, because it does, but as soon as the pups are put back with mom to nurse and be licked by mom, they soon settle down and they heal pretty quickly. I would understand it being bad if the person that brings their pups in to be done does not take proper care of them after as in keeping the pups clean and their bedding cleaned daily so as to help with the healing, then it would be horrible. But, then, that goes with anyone who doesn't properly care for a litter of pups that are born when the mom is in their care.

Same goes with the ears, proper cropping conditions at the vet and proper care after the crop and the dog shows no signs after the first day that they even had them done. They play and sleep like normal except that they are more careful about hitting their ears for a week or so. So, I guess I would be considered a "bad" person by some as I am not against doing this.

Here is something to think about with the issue of cropping ears. Dobbies, (retracted), and others, were originally cropped so that the ears would stand and thus, when out working as a guard dog or in the wars, they would not get ear infections. We all know that we have to be vigilant with our poodles ears as they are dropped and thus do not have natural air flow, and if not kept clean can get some nasty ear infections. By cropping the ears of the dogs that were being used in out of the way places and dogs that "went to ground" and could get serious dirt and thus infections in their ears, it was done for the health and well being of the dog. If you think about it, wild dogs do NOT have dropped ears, it is not a trait that would last in the wild, the dog's ears need to have air flow to allow them to stay dry and not get infections. I realize that our dobbies, others, and "rat dogs" don't 'need' this as their human owner can take care of the ears as we do with other drop eared dogs. But, I can say that my dobes have never had ear problems over the past 30 years of owing one, but I have a friend who has a dobe with drop, natural ears and she has had a few episodes of ear infections. I understand people who are against doing this and respect their thoughts, but I personally don't find it as bad as when my son was circumcised.... WOW, did he cry and cry and it took a while to heal and it hurt him as keeping the area clean is a bit harder when it is in a diaper. But, then, I would not ever not have a son circumcised. I am sure the debate on "to have" or "not to have" cropping/docking done is something that will go on for a long time.
 

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So can someone show me a picture of a cropped poodle ear and an uncropped.
Sorry.. I'm new to poodles and didnt know they crop the ears
 

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So can someone show me a picture of a cropped poodle ear and an uncropped.
Sorry.. I'm new to poodles and didnt know they crop the ears
No, no. Sorry if you misunderstood. Poodles do not and never have had cropped ears. They get their tails docked and dew claws removed. The discussion just has gone into the full thing of cropping and docking. The poodle just gets the docking. :) Hope this helps. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Well, now that the UKC is letting them in the AKC will not be far behind. That is how things work it seems. First the UKC gets them all set up and showing and titles then down the road the AKC adopts the breed or color.

I would be real interested in getting hold of the German standard on poodles. Will have to look that one up again as i did find it on the net. I know there is 4 sizes. What is standard for us is not for them. That size that is 15" goes to 23". The last size and the biggest goes from 23" to 26". So those that say poodle are only supose to be no taller than 23" are not correct. If home country has the up to 26" then no one should say anything less about it. Those that say those sizes can not work are wrong too for the GSD are that size at 23" to 26". German exports its oversizes dogs and keep the ones or the right sizes if they have no real bad deffects.

Hmm wondering if there have been any imported poodles from Germany in the past decades.
 

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Cybercat, I think you're right! I think the PCA will come around and the number of quality partis and other less common colors will improve. It's just a matter of time.

Jester's mom, I had to think for a minute. I thought maybe Rotts were cropped at one time, LOL. It's really common to lump those two breeds together though.

Railko, check out the AKC's website. They should have plenty of pics of cropped breed vs uncropped. Off the top of my head: Boxers, Dobies, Great Danes, all 3 Schnauzer breeds, Briards, Bouviers, Min Pins, Brussels Griffon and Am Staffs are usually cropped. I'm sure I missed quite a few though. More breeds are docked: Rotties, Poodles, Weimaraners, GSPs, GWPs, Cocker Spaniels, etc.
 
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