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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Thank you so much everyone. Truly.
Addressing the eyes: he did not have dry eye until we got him and the vet had us put him on Vitamin A along with the Fish oil. It is known that this can cause dry eye and I watched it carefully. When I saw him rubbing them and having some discharge I took him to the vet and I immediately stopped the vitamin (he does not seem to need it for his coat). I began eye drops and as long as I give them morning and night, his eyes are bright again and he is able to track balls no problem, he watches hand gestures for commands, etc.
His aggressions happened during the day as well- the one was in the middle of a sunny day with the van side door wide open (where he jumped in).
He most definitely is not a laid back guy- like he is driven by a motor. If he has been exercised, and we take away the toys he wants thrown, he seems to be able to finally relax and can lie down. He likes to lie down wherever we are and does not like to be away from anyone. He can seem dead asleep, buy if someone gets up to walk upstairs, he is up and following them. Not sure if it is out of affection or seeing if they are doing something more exciting.
I will begin the process to find a good, qualified person for help and pray it does not mean we second mortgage the house for it!
Thank you, all so much!
 
The good news is this:

He likes to lie down wherever we are and does not like to be away from anyone. He can seem dead asleep, buy if someone gets up to walk upstairs, he is up and following them. Not sure if it is out of affection or seeing if they are doing something more exciting.
Just sounds like a poodle being a poodle. :) Peggy literally wants her head in my lap when I’m on the toilet! When denied, she will lay on my feet. If she somehow gets locked out of the bathroom, she will wait near the door.

And the van door scenario sounds like the exact sort of situation where Peggy would struggle to see/appropriately assess threat: She’s in the shade, shadows, or just relative darkness, and someone is backlit by bright light.

Peggy is also a pretty highstrung girl, and does much better with mental exercise than physical. We make sure she gets ample opportunity to stretch her legs and run free, but if she’s wound up, I do a short, fun training session, and that relaxes her better than a walk, run, or fetch ever could. Trick training has been a lifesaver, as has rewarding her regularly throughout the day for something as simple as calmly watching me make dinner. I try hard to reinforce all the good behaviours she offers up, rather than constantly correcting the stuff I don’t love. I also make up all sorts of little jobs for her, which can be as simple as pulling paper out of a cardboard box. She, like so many poodles, needs purpose.

I hope you’ll continue to poke around the forum and read about the variety of experiences represented here. You might see some relatable stories. :)

I also hope you’ll do what’s necessary to keep your kids safe and never, ever feel bad about that.
 
I second the suggestion for a qualified behaviourist, I wouldn't personally be looking at euthanasia without a bite (or several). I might consider a child free home though. I am not there so your judgement is far better than mine!

It was for a far more minor issue, but I worked with a very reputable, very experienced trainer and was amazed how a single session helped me understand my dog and how to work with her. You might be surprised at how few sessions it takes.

I also agree with limiting fetch as it can wind dogs up like a spring, and making sure you have dog appropriate places he can retreat to that are child free (like a crate) that he is rewarded for going to.

My own poodle, who also was wound like a spring some days for a while, benefited greatly from working on this:


Another thing I found helpful with 'grumbly' dogs on couches is to teach jumping off the couch as a heavily rewarded trick, taught through luring and positive reinforcement, not any sort of collar grab or tugging. So no people and dog on couch at the same time (or children and dog if that's where the issue is) but if the people want on the couch, that the dog is currently occupying, they can ask for what they want (off) and dog is happy to comply. No hands or feet vulnerable near the dog, either!
 
Your vet may be able to direct you to a qualified behaviorist. Mine did. It was $90 for an hour session. In my case he stayed an hour and a half (no extra charge) because (IMO) he liked working with Elroy.
 
To answer a few questions, he had full blood work done on Labor day and on a few days after. The big nerd got into grapes we had in a sack on the counter in the middle of the night (he had never even attempted to get onto the counter before that night). He was acting strangely in the morning and when I pieced it together I rushed him to the emergency vet (of course it was a holiday so much more $$). He had to stay overnight and had full blood work done to ensure he was ok.
I am a special education teacher and had to donate plasma after school multiple times in order to pay for his stay (Just finished).
There had also been extensive blood work done in July just before we got him due to his skin condition and a horrible skin lesion infection.
I fully understand not bothering a dog while resting, but when they are sitting fully awake and a child across the room says to come or they are in a car and a teenager says to come from several feet away, a dog should not react that way. It was not a fear or startle response or even just a warning growl, but a growl and barking while charging.
I have absolutely no idea how I will pay for therapy for this dog seeing as how my limited research shows it is around $175 for just an initial consultation and there are no certified behavior trainers within 30 miles of me which would up the cost for a home visit and I am struggling to pay down another child's medical bills.
Even worse than the money, my worst fear is that even after having a therapist come in, that WE people will not be able to get over this.
He is large and jet black. When he comes at you like that, it leaves a mark on you emotionally.
Will we get over this and be able to trust him?
Even today while telling him "Down" so I could give him a treat, I look at him and wonder if he is going to come at me.
I hope I am clear about how much we have cared for and tried to train this pup. He came to us in a horrible state. He gets fish oil twice a day, eye drops twice a day for dry eye (caused by vitamin A the vet recommended), gets rubbed with bath oil and then sprayed with propolyne glycol every night, and handfed canned food and puppy food mixed to put on weight (he is doing better eating alone now, but sometimes still needs it if he has not taken in enough). He was literal skin and bones when we got him- every rib showing and just rubbed raw skin on his pelvic bones where he sat. Twice a week he is thoroughly saturated in coconut oil which sits on him for 2 hours, then he is bathed and dried while being told what a good boy he is.
He has been given limitations and only gets rewards when performing a task. He has been socialized very well and with great effort and only let off leash to play in a fenced in large grass field in our neighborhood.
If he does not run or hike outside for an hour a day he begins to eat socks, chew undesirables, etc.
We found when we throw the ball every day he does not do that and is able to actually sit down. Otherwise he paces the house and keeps placing toys in front of us to throw in the house for him (it is quite adorable- he puts it down, steps back, then comes back and moves it a bit for you to see better and so on.). He has learned "Done" and stops pestering if we are done playing. He has Kongs with treats around the house placed to keep him busy and happy.
He has a coat for when we went backpacking over the summer and I was afraid he would get a chill, a lifejacket for when we taught him how much he loves swimming, toys for stimulation, gone through multiple dog foods to find what he will eat to be healthy, positive praise....
He has absolutely NO prey drive- does not go after our chickens (they are fenced, but one got out and he could not have cared less), our rabbit, cats seen on walks or even our love bird who gets out of his cage on his own and explores the house on foot.
He follows anyone who is moving around the house and waits for them to come out of bathrooms, etc. He likes to be near us, but also has his own bed (which he is trained to go to and where he goes when given a good soup bone or to just lie down). He mouthed while playing at first and after training he has not done that.
He has always slept on the floor of my daughter's room on a blanket which made her feel safe.
It took us all by such shock.
I cannot eat or sleep, especially after he scared my youngest and am crying while typing this.
I feel sick if I inadvertently caused this and even sicker if he becomes worse if he needs to be rehomed another time.
I had NO idea he was capable of aggression.
In my line of work, I don't give up on anyone. However, my own children must come first.
I am so sorry for this epistle.
I am just utterly crushed.
I was wondering about the costs too. I have no children and a well paid job, and still find behaviorists cost prohibitive. In Los Angeles, an initial consult is minimum $350 and every session after that is minimum $199. For a issue such as aggression or reactivity, I would imagine that there would be many sessions over an extended period of time. I think everyone should consider this when offering it as a solution. It's so so expensive.
 
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I was wondering about the costs too. I have no children and a well paid job, and still find behaviorists cost prohibitive. In Los Angeles, an initial consult is minimum $350 and every session after that is minimum $199. For a issue such as aggression or reactivity, I would imagine that there would be many sessions over an extended period of time. I think everyone should consider this when offering it as a solution. It's so so expensive.
I hear you, but unfortunately there aren’t many other solutions we can ethically offer....especially when aggression and children are involved.

One good thing to come out of covid is that a number of dog professionals started offering their services from a distance. I didn’t let geography limit my own behaviourist search. Ours consulted remotely using a combination of emails, phone calls, and video chats. And she was nowhere near the price range you’re seeing in Los Angeles.

She has a PhD in animal behaviour and works directly with shelters. Our KPA-certified trainer also has a background in shelter work.

So when I encouraged the OP to involve the SPCA, who (if I’m understanding correctly) facilitated the adoption, it’s with the hope they may be able to recommend some resources, or even offer help at a lower price point.
 
Hi!
Please bear with me here.
We rescued a perfect little poodle 12 years ago, making her 13 now. She has been raised with my children and has been an integral part of our family.
She is trained, gentle and we have worked hard with her.

We had a beautiful black full standard poodle fall into our laps this summer. He has sebaceous adentitis, which means he produces no oil. It is genetic and many dogs are put down due to it. Their hair falls out, they get open sores, etc. I was willing to take on a skin condition, but not a behavior problem. The owners were irresponsible and had not neutered him, even after knowing about this condition. He is 3. The SPCA let me know he was a bit hyper, but ensured all would be changed after neutering (which I knew was wishful thinking). I asked the veterinarian treating him many questions, asked them to ask the owners about any problems, aggression, barking, etc. All was a no, it was just the skin condition.
I read for hours and bought many products for him. I have worked out a perfect regimine and after 3 months, his hair has grown back beautifully. It will never be fully curly, but is wavy and thick with no fall out. This is what I signed up for.
The bad: He barks LOUDLY and barked at people without warning with scary lunging on a leash. No biting actions, though. We got a gentle lead to stop pulling and I took him on TONS of walks despite embarrassment, giving him treats before he could bark and telling him Quiet. It has worked beautifully. We go hiking and walking every day and he does not bark.
I can now take him to parks and throw for hours with him running to the ball and coming back every time. He responds to come very well.
He remains VERY hyper and is obsessive compulsive with balls and he knows they are not allowed in the house, dropping them at the door out back. We hike with him, taught him to swim for balls with his cute life jacket, he is loved, cuddled, has an asenal of chuck it balls for all times of day, he has learned sit, shake, come, quiet, spin, roll over, wait, down, hug, etc.
He was VERY underweight and after hand feeding him to get weight up, he is eating mostly independently and looks great.

PROBLEM: Each a few days apart
1st instance: We were leaving as a family and he ran from the house and into the car without permission. He loves to go in the car to soccer games, hiking, etc. When my teenage daughter went to call him out, she did not even go for the collar or anything, he began growling VERY aggressively and then jumped out and went toward her. Not really to bite, but barking loudly and scarily right at her. I jumped out, ran around to get in between them and yelled to break his attention. I got him into the house. I never hurt him, just made a sound to break his attention.
2nd instance: He was up on the couch we love to snuggle him on and I just came up to hug him. He began growling horribly and jumped up still growling while coming right up to me. I turned around and walked to the door, called him and put him out.
3rd instance: He was again on the couch and my youngest daughter called him to come up to the kitchen. They had been sleeping together for an hour together just before, with her snuggled on top of him. He just was sitting, not making a sound so she came down to call him (not grabbing at him) and he again growled loudly and then barked aggressively and jumped off to bark right at her.
Now she tries to play with him abit, but I can tell she is very scared.
I am HEARTBROKEN.
Do I give him back?
If it were just the couch, I would not worry as much. We will sadly keep him off it from now on as he is resource guarding it. But with him doing it in the car as well, and with him being aggressive towards my children AT ALL, I just don't know what to do.
I know we can train this, but I feel I will always be afraid of him. Aggression is the ONLY thing I was not willing to deal with.
My late Mom's then my, late SPoo growled at me ONCE - telling me it was HIS couch and to stay off. I growled back and bit him, AND pulled him off the sofa. May sound stupid or mean but it did the trick. NEVER growled at me again. OH and I DID love him more than anything except my cats!
 

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My late Mom's then my, late SPoo growled at me ONCE - telling me it was HIS couch and to stay off. I growled back and bit him, AND pulled him off the sofa. May sound stupid or mean but it did the trick. NEVER growled at me again. OH and I DID love him more than anything except my cats!
I think you are very lucky you didn't get hurt and/or create a more deeply problematic situation with that response.

For those posts regarding costs of behaviorists, most of the time you need a consult and then a session or two with a behaviorist to develop a training plan executed by the owner or the owner with a local trainer. Even simple training work often only requires a couple of sessions with a professional.

As to this dog and his tendency towards aggressive displays if the OP can get things into a management plan where the people (especially te children) are not livig in fear of the dog then that is all for the good, but if they can't and aggressive behavior continues or deepens to delivering bites then this is not a dog that should be rehomed. I have a friend who runs a large local breed rescue and she would never ever put an aggressive dog into a home. Aggressive behavior is very much not a tolerated part of the breed standard. She would not take such a dog into foster and rescue if aggression was known to be present. If a dog was returned to her organization for biting, the dog would be euthanized. Euthanasia is not a first step but sometimes is a needed step.
 
I think you are very lucky you didn't get hurt and/or create a more deeply problematic situation with that response.

For those posts regarding costs of behaviorists, most of the time you need a consult and then a session or two with a behaviorist to develop a training plan executed by the owner or the owner with a local trainer. Even simple training work often only requires a couple of sessions with a professional.

As to this dog and his tendency towards aggressive displays if the OP can get things into a management plan where the people (especially te children) are not livig in fear of the dog then that is all for the good, but if they can't and aggressive behavior continues or deepens to delivering bites then this is not a dog that should be rehomed. I have a friend who runs a large local breed rescue and she would never ever put an aggressive dog into a home. Aggressive behavior is very much not a tolerated part of the breed standard. She would not take such a dog into foster and rescue if aggression was known to be present. If a dog was returned to her organization for biting, the dog would be euthanized. Euthanasia is not a first step but sometimes is a needed step.
Would Cesar milan be any help? I did what I did as it was the first thing that popped in my mine. I DO WISH I never had. Mom gave him the sofa and made ME sit on the floor and I just sort of had it. I am sorry and wish he was here to tell him. He was a wonderful SPoo! I miss him so much!
Hair Smile Dog Carnivore Dog breed
 
Would Cesar milan be any help? I did what I did as it was the first thing that popped in my mine. I DO WISH I never had. Mom gave him the sofa and made ME sit on the floor and I just sort of had it. I am sorry and wish he was here to tell him. He was a wonderful SPoo! I miss him so much! View attachment 482951
Cesar Milan is not generally considered to be a responsible safe trainer. Many of his tactics are great television, but can be dangerous in practice. They are not borne out by research. Dogs are wonderfully adaptable and many can overcome mishandling to figure out the behavior you actually want. I would take most tv trainers with a heap of skepticism and do my own research on modern tactics and research findings.
 
NO NO NO do not use Cesar Milan (or any other TV trainer) techniques. All of those shows do have disclaimers so the experts don't get sued. Another well know TV trainer worked at a local facility with a dangerous dog to prep an episode. I wasn't there but people I know who were and watched said there was a lot of tape on the editing room floor since the expert was bitten several times before getting things in order. Your dog could have severely injured your face and eyes.
 
NO NO NO do not use Cesar Milan (or any other TV trainer) techniques. All of those shows do have disclaimers so the experts don't get sued. Another well know TV trainer worked at a local facility with a dangerous dog to prep an episode. I wasn't there but people I know who were and watched said there was a lot of tape on the editing room floor since the expert was bitten several times before getting things in order. Your dog could have severely injured your face and eyes.
Wow - poor dog!
 
Minie I don't know why you feel sorry for the dog. It had a history filled with biting and other aggression. The trainer is known as a positive reinforcement trainer. The whole thing struck me as a hot mess at the time. The worst issues of TV and internet trainers is that they can edit like wild and make things look super easy when they are anything but and when those apparent miracle methods are applied by people who don't really know all the ins and outs of the methods people can't get hurt and dogs can be condemned to euthanasia when that wasn't really the only strategy to use.
 
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I have to poke my head in again with a personal anecdote:

One trainer “assessed” my puppy over the phone. (I say that with quotation marks as the phone call was maybe 5 minutes.)

Another assessed her using a detailed online questionnaire.

Another assessed her in person.

The conclusion arrived at by the latter two could not have been more different from the first. It’s actually kinda scary.


We only know what you’ve told us here. And what you’ve told us here is filtered through your feelings of fear, guilt, and grief. It’s also your subjective interpretation of events, which isn’t always going to be accurate. We don’t “speak dog.” And we’re sometimes too emotionally invested to see the bigger picture. A professional knows this and will be able to dig down past our observations to the root of the issue.

So please do take our well-meaning advice with a grain of salt and seek a professional assessment, ideally through the shelter who entrusted you with this boy.

When Peggy started resource guarding, if I’d taken all the advice I’d gotten on the internet a) I’d have been extremely confused and overwhelmed, as much of it was contradictory or incomplete. And b) I’d probably have made the problem much worse. In fact, our behaviourist specifically mentioned some of the tips I’d been given by multiple well-meaning friends, family, and acquaintances as examples of exactly what not to do. They could have led to a bite or worsening fear or worse, making her job harder and lowering our chances of success.

If you’d like to PM me about our experience with a behaviourist, I’d be happy to chat with you.
I agree with the recommendation for a behaviorist and no hugging. Hugging is a human trait that some dogs tolerate and shouldn't be practiced. I was bitten on the face but No skin was broken when I placed my arm across the back/shoulder of a male working Australian Shepherd that I knew since he was a puppy. That was considered a dominant reaction on my part and his part; dogs test dominance with a forearm over the other dog's back/shoulder and some dogs tolerate it and most don't. I understand the fear that you are experiencing; I had a Cairn rescue from a puppy mill that exhibited the growling/lunging after I had him(he was worse in the crate) it is very hard just to stand there and not back away but you did it. I too felt afraid for quite awhile. I also think he is testing you(the honeymoon phase is over) and you can work through this. I would not leave him unsupervised with the children also try not to act afraid in front of them. We didn't have children but my niece did/does and I understood that if there was just one pinch/bite then euthanasia. Your children come first and you must try not to act afraid. I did see/use a behaviorist and she was able to help/fix us(the way we were interacting with him)and my Cairn! I also did not allow him on the furniture and everyone was aware of how to interact with him; pet, play(no one sitting on the floor/ground with him)and giving treats. I also believe in the" nothing in life is free" concept.You have done a wonderful job with him and you are giving him a wonderful life whatever you choose for him will be the right choice for your family.
 
Minie I don't know why you feel sorry for the dog. It had a history filled with biting and other aggression. The trainer is known as a positive reinforcement trainer. The whole thing struck me as a hot mess at the time. The worst issues of TV and internet trainers is that they can edit like wild and make things look super easy when they are anything but and when those apparent miracle methods are applied by people who don't really know all the ins and outs of the methods people can't get hurt and dogs can be condemned to euthanasia when that wasn't really the only strategy to use.
The reason why I feel for the dog is that the aggression and biting is an expression of deep underlying issues. I think that trying behavioual issues are less stressful without a camera crew following along. That the result is the expert being bitten several times is awful. For both. That I believe is negative reinforcement.
I do agree, that tv trainers have the option of editing and making it seem easy. Training behavioural issues is hard work and requires patience, a calm environment and positive good techniques. This is seldom in a tv setup. Therefore - poor dog.
 
Minie thank you for clarifying your thinking. I think we really agree on the core principles.
 
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I hear you, but unfortunately there aren’t many other solutions we can ethically offer....especially when aggression and children are involved.

One good thing to come out of covid is that a number of dog professionals started offering their services from a distance. I didn’t let geography limit my own behaviourist search. Ours consulted remotely using a combination of emails, phone calls, and video chats. And she was nowhere near the price range you’re seeing in Los Angeles.

She has a PhD in animal behaviour and works directly with shelters. Our KPA-certified trainer also has a background in shelter work.

So when I encouraged the OP to involve the SPCA, who (if I’m understanding correctly) facilitated the adoption, it’s with the hope they may be able to recommend some resources, or even offer help at a lower price point.
That’s good to hear. Yeah at LA prices I minus well get my dog a human psychiatrist to save a little money 🥲
 
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Watching this thread from the sidelines, I have a few thoughts:
1) I haven't yet read anything indicating that euthanasia is needed at this point, but this dog might benefit from a child free home with dog savvy and kindly owners.
2) It will be much harder, and ethically problematic, to rehome the dog after the first bite.
3) It seems many of the incidents - resource guarding the couch, barking at people - are rooted in fear and insecurity. Using any sort of alpha, dominance, or punishment based approach is likely to backfire and possibly provoke a bite. Dominance techniques suggested by Cesar Milan, some of the older Monks of New Skete books, and various other popular trainers should be avoided. The alpha dog stuff simply turns up the heat on an already nervous dog without removing the triggers and anxiety that are driving the dog.
4) Temperament issues often have their roots in medical issues. This dog certainly seems like a candidate for this explanation. The skin issues and dry eye probably aren't comfortable. The dog may have vision issues, leading to startle reflexes. The dog may simply have bad wiring due to bad breeding. It might be worth talking to the vet about anti-anxiety medications and/or pain killers.

Finally, all of us have different levels of risk tolerance and financial resources. Some of us have paid off the mortgage and launched our kids into their careers; unexpectedly dropping $5k on vet bills is a minor hardship. Perhaps we postpone a vacation as a result. For others of us that $5k might be the difference between whether we can replace the furnace or fix the car we need to get to work. There should be no guilt in saying, "I can't do this," when, in fact, you really can't do it.
 
I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I just wanted to chime in with another source to check in your search for a certified behavior consultant -- the IAABC (International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants) IAABC.ORG. Don't worry if there isn't anyone in your area. Many people are offering virtual sessions, which can be every bit as effective as in-person sessions, and sometimes better.

Wishing you the best. 💖
 
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