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Discussion Starter #1
Hello

I'm sorry if offend anyone yesterday. It was exciting to say the least, I really enjoyed be able to express my concerns for our breeds future.

It is not my goal to make enemies among fellow breeders or breed lovers. Maybe it’s the age I'm at when I've seen so much despair and control that it really starts to get to me.

I have a wide variety of friends with various breed types. We talk we share ideas and express future concerns. It upset me a little when I was approached and asked what fellow Poodle breeders felt about this particular ban on docking.
I had to admit that we really were not worried about the ban that it did not really affect us most of us already know how to dock and due dock on our own.

This point was brought to me, "that's all fine and dandy for you. But do you think for one minute the ban will stop at the vets. HAD TO THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE. The obvious answer was no.

It was then explained to me that the vets association was being hit hard by various animal activist. These being the reason why dock and dew claw removal are considered cosmetic practices.
These are the same groups that took my friends pit bulls away. And for what bite prevention. The results were just in Toronto, the bit bull ban has done nothing but extinct a breed. Bites have not resided after ban of pit bull. Another example of how animal activist have been able to remove breeders rights. I never signed their petition because it did not affect me.

We as breeders are going to be easy targets. Today no tail docking tomorrow no breeding.

So please except my apology, I only have best interests at heart. Everyone should have a choice to have a docked or undocked pet. Just like everyone should have the right to dock or not to dock.
If we chose to dock than I would like to think that it’s being done with the utmost intentions of animal welfare in mind.
Thanks for your time
Jean
This is why I thought others maybe interested in this petition as well as other information.


NSVMA rules on Cosmetic Surgery | Facebook

Letters from owners of tail damaged dogs

CBC News - Nova Scotia - N.S veterinarians ban tail docking

CBC News - New Brunswick - No more nip and tuck for show dogs: N.B. vets

Me and my dogs in Halifax, Nova Scotia: NS Veterinary Medical Assocation Bans Tail Docking & Ear Cropping


http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban
 

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I don't dock any of my own poodles any more- just by request. I really feel there is no need to whack off a poodle tail.
That being said, I don't agree with it becoming law. I think you should have the right to do as you want, as long as it isn't cruel to the animal.
It would be tough for me to get worked up over fighting a ban, as I really think poodles enjoy having tails.
Carole
 

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I agree with Carole. I really see no reason for docking tails. Years ago I helped a friend dock tails on two day old Airedale puppies and it didn't seem to have any traumatic effect on them. That being said I still can't see a reason for it. Just because certain humans think it looks better doesn't seem like a good reason to me. I feel that cropping ears is even worse. So, OK its done under anaesthetic, but I have had surgery and its never enjoyable.

Both are done because humans think it looks better. Not a good reason for me. I have heard all the arguments for it and they just sound like excuses. I agree it often DOES look better but I personally wouldn't do it.
 

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I am sitting on the fence. Growing up in a die hard show home, a docked tail is what looks normal and correct to me. BUT, I am having more and more interest in show/breeding pups going to Europe, and they cannot show with a docked tail, and I do not feel anyone can pick a show pup at three days of age. I am wishing sometimes it would just be illegal, period. That universally an undocked is accepted as norm. Then there would be no decisions to make on the breeders part. That being said, I do agree with you that it is not right that we are told what we can or cannot do, particularly when this is something that has been practiced for many, many years, and a show Poodle with an undocked tail in North America is lkikely going to have a tough go of it in the show ring unless we become like Europe and make it so a Poodle CANNOT be shown WITH a docked tail.
 

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I am sitting on the fence. Growing up in a die hard show home, a docked tail is what looks normal and correct to me. BUT, I am having more and more interest in show/breeding pups going to Europe, and they cannot show with a docked tail.
I thought that foreign-bred dogs could be shown in some European countries with a docked tail? Or is it foreign-bred dogs can show in U.S. with a non-docked tail?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Then there would be no decisions to make on the breeders part. That being said, I do agree with you that it is not right that we are told what we can or cannot do, particularly when this is something that has been practiced for many, many years, .
This is how I feel all the time not just some of the time But all of the time.
I don't go around telling others that they should dock tails. why is it that it is right for others to tell us you can not dock or dew claw your puppies.

It seems like a one way street to me its ether get on the band wagon of no docking and dew claw removal. Or rest in peace.

What if the shoe where on the other foot and people would be telling that you must dock your tails no matter how you feel. Or what you know to be true in your heart and in findings from many many breedings over many many years. This would be infringing on your rights.

I'm not saying you should or you should not dock or dew claw remove your puppies. What I'm saying is little by little over the years or rights a responable breeders are being taken away. People don't seem to understand first they attack a certain breed, then when they can not succeed this way they try to succeed in other ways.
 

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I thought that foreign-bred dogs could be shown in some European countries with a docked tail? Or is it foreign-bred dogs can show in U.S. with a non-docked tail?
You can not show a dog with docked tail for example in Denmark.
In Iceland you can show a dog with cropped ears and docked tail but it has to come from America or be born before the docking ban in each country.

But you can show a dog with normal tail in AKC.
 

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You can not show a dog with docked tail for example in Denmark.
In Iceland you can show a dog with cropped ears and docked tail but it has to come from America or be born before the docking ban in each country.

But you can show a dog with normal tail in AKC.
So have you seen a decline (or extinction) of previously docked breeds because of this ban?
 

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So have you seen a decline (or extinction) of previously docked breeds because of this ban?
No.

I think people are generally happy with it.

It will be funny at first, you will have some generations of very bad tails but then I think it will start to get better :p

The dogs that have hurt there tails do have them docked during a procedure at the Vets but they are very few.

It was one Great Dane (there tails are not even docked in the first place)
And one Boxer.
 

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Discussion Starter #10

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http://k9alliance.com/articles/Pet_Law_and_Legislation.pdf
this is a very recent article on the results of docking and cropping ban in other countries.
Hmm, that article says it will take an objective look at cropping/ docking, but then the top quote is one in favour of the procedures from a DVM.

I have an all natural poodle (tail and dews). He's only 13 weeks, so I can't give proof either way of how his life has been affected by this. I can say that as he prances down the street the way the end of his tail waves back and forth lifts my heart (I don't know why, it just does!) I don't think it would be the same with a docked tail. I also come from a breed (PWD) with a natural tail, and have never once seen or heard of a true tail injury within the circle of PWD people that we know that required any sort of surgery. However PWDs do have their dews removed.

My problem with it being left up to choice is that the breed ring will always prefer one or the other. So showing a natural poodle right now in NA would handicap you I would guess. So even breeders who would like to go all natural will continue to dock in order to be competitive in the ring. Also, as I can see on Darcy, natural tails tend to curl because Poodles have not been bred for tails for the most part. So there will be little improvement in natural tail form if docking continues to be the standard, and in fact you could be penalized in the ring for the "curly tail" even though who knows what would have been going on with the docked dogs!

I don't really know the answer. All I can say is an outright ban on docking/ cropping wouldn't bother me, but I can very much see both sides of this issue. And if an outright ban took place, I think true working dogs should be exempt.
 

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the ban doesn't concern me so much on docking tails for poodles.

but as an aussie breeder it does. 1 reason yes is look. Our breed had natural bob tails as well as docked. It is in our ASCA standard that the tail is not to be over 4" in length. There are numerous injuries with working aussies and tails. They herd very different from BC's for example. then comes in that as well we haven't been breeding for tails- so the tails aren't that great. I have an aussie with the tail i greatly prefer one with out.

Dewclaws though really do both me- so many injuries just like tails.

My friend breeds Jack russels. Tails are docked ('long' imo) because when they go to ground the tips get broken off so easily .
 

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Such a hot topic in the dog world:) Kind of like the required spay/neuter debate.

I kind of think some of these animal rights folks need a new hobby. How about finding EDUCATION on responsible ownership or doing clinics for microchips so people could find their lost dogs instead of getting all worked up over a cosmetic issue that doesn't really hurt the dog if it's done correctly. Maybe it's just that I don't like to be told what to do by somebody who doesn't know me. If you prefer a natural tail, great for you keep them natural. If you prefer one that is docked that should be allowed too and I shouldn't get worked up at all about your choice.

At my house right now I have two docked tails and one undocked tail who is visiting for a while. I notice no difference between the two in how they use their tails and believe me I've been looking. Not so much because I saw a post on it here or anywhere else but b/c I was curious. I have thought about getting my next puppy in a couple of years from this dog's breeder and she doesnt do dew claws or tails. I like it both ways though I lean slightly towards a docked tail at the moment. Maybe you could argue there is a difference in breeds that have just a nub left after docking but not in poodles. Only a small portion of the tail is supposed to be docked so they still have plenty to use for communication. The key I suppose is the "if it's done correctly" and not wacked off to a teeny nub. That's not even cute in my opinion. My schnauzer who had just a nub was very expressive with his tail so I'm not sure it even matters there either. ??
 
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